Today, I’d like to try something new. Lately, some of you have sent in alternative translations to some of the excerpts I send out to you daily. I think this is great, please keep doing this! My translations on this platform are quite literal and practical, because they are meant as a tool for language learning. But in reality, there are so many different approaches: some might prefer literal translations as it gets them closer to the sentence structure of the original, whereas others might want their translations to be more literary so that they convey the atmosphere of the text. I don’t think that there’s a right way of doing it. But this got me thinking: wouldn’t it be interesting to see different interpretations of the same passage(s) by translating it with the whole Bunsuke community?
So I thought I’d give this a try. Below you’ll find a longer passage from Yamada Eimi’s latest book (published in late February, so I suspect that there are currently no translations out there of this work, though I’ve used the first paragraph in a previous newsletter). I’ve numbered the sentences ①～⑪, so you can choose which sentence(s) you want to translate in the comments. You can pick one, multiple, or just translate the entire passage. Please indicate clearly which sentences you picked by writing the numbers first:
Example:
I pick sentences 1 to 4.
[your translation of sentences 1 to 4]
Beginners and intermediate learners are especially encouraged to participate. I realize it’s tough, but just give it a shot! If you feel you’re struggling, it means you’re making progress :) Feel free to (respectfully) comment on each other’s translations, as well.
Really look forward to reading your interpretations!
I sleep with married men. I'd love to shout it from the rooftops, but I'd probably get pelted with stones. And they'd call me names. "Whore!" You'd be surprised to hear all the old-timey insults people bring back when they find out you've been having an affair. "Coquette!" "She-fox!" "Thieving cat!" What did foxes and cats ever do to you?
I looked up "impropriety" in the dictionary, and here's what I found:
"An immoral act. Especially, an act that strays from proper relations between the sexes."
And then I checked out some related phrases. Fornication, illicit tryst, rotting away together, private encounter, doing it, betrayal, our little secret, misconduct... the list goes on and on. But I have a clear favorite: rotting away together. It might have first appeared in Kyoka Izumi's novel "A Woman's Stock." Such a juicy phrase, isn't it? Even beyond the world of immoral acts. It suggests the image of a man and a woman as overripe food, just on the cusp of spoiling, yet incredibly delicious.
Rotten yet delicious... Chinese fermented tofu comes to mind. They start with fresh tofu and then introduce bacteria, leaving it to ferment. The stench so overpowering that some people can't stand to be anywhere near it, but it brings a deep, satisfying flavor to food.
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To me, the most important part of this passage is the speaker's unapologetic desire for affairs. That point of view informed a lot of my translation decisions.
It's tempting to translate 女狐 and 泥棒猫 as something that sounds old-timey in English, but to preserve the joke on the following line about foxes and cats, I had to stick with phrases that referenced those animals. I still think they sound stilted enough that it comes off as quaint.
The list of related phrases was a fun challenge. I found the most success with thinking hard about the kanji used in those words and then coming up with English phrases euphemisms for adultery that had similar connotations.
And then we arrive at the main word of the piece: 腐れ合う. What a great word! I played with some more natural sounding translations but they all lost the core meaning: two people corrupting each other, destroying themselves but in the process making something pungent with flavor and life. Blue cheese. Sauerkraut. Miso paste. So I left it as the more literal "rotting away together" which will definitely make the reader pause for a second but will all make sense as they continue reading.
Wow! You had some great solutions to some of the trickier parts of this passage. Also now I think I understand what the second sentence means. Taking literally it makes no sense in English.
That was tough and I needed a dictionary lots! Here is my attempt at translating:
My hobby is sleeping with people’s husbands. It’s something I want to shout from the centre of the world. Rocks are probably going to come flying from all directions (for saying that). So, what an evil woman! So I will curse at her. When the adultery is discovered, I’m surprised that such old-fashioned swear words are revived. “Hussy”, and “She-fox”, and “Mud-cat”. The poor foxes and cats.
When you look up adultery in the dictionary here is what’s there:
A thing against morality. Especially leaving the righteous path of male and female relations. Also, the person.
And, incidentally, I also searched and found similar words. They are...“illicit sex”, “wicked communications”, “rotten meeting”, “being intimate”, “collusion”, “liaison”, “secret commute”...and well, they keep coming and coming...however “rotten meeting”...that’s to my taste! It’s like something that would be said on stage in Izumi Kyouto’s “Family Tree” but, rather than having a meaning of unethical, it is completely fascinating, don’t you think? Hidden within it is the nuance that men and women are the most tasty when they are just about to rot.
When I say rotting is tasty, I mean like Chinese fermented tofu, which is tofu glazed with yeast and left to ferment. It’s a rather strong smell and, to some people, stinks enough to keep a distance from the person (eating it). However, used as a seasoning it’s delicious.
Hi BeerGuy, this is great! You went ahead and translated the whole thing. Curious to see how others will deal with certain passages as well. This was a tough one in places, wasn't it? Great work :)
I want to cry, I typed out the whole translation in the app and it didn’t save😂 let’s try again...
1. My hobby is sleeping with other women’s husbands. For me it is like a cry from the center of the earth.
* I have no idea what to do with that second sentence. I understand all the words individually, but it’s not clear to me what the author is driving at.
2. Probably stones will be thrown at me from all sides.
3. But, “lascivious woman!” I will be cursed.
4. When adultery is discovered it is surprising the resort to old curses.
5. “Bitch” or “vixen” or “thieving cat.” How sad for foxes and cats.
*this sentence is simple but raises some interesting translation questions! For example 女狐 has an exact English equivalent “vixen” which means female fox, and with a sexual overtone. But in English is has a fun, naughty, sexy connotation and I get the impression in Japanese 女狐is a pure insult like “bitch” meaning female dog is in English. Also thieving cat makes no sense in English “home wrecker” would be better but then translating the following sentence would be challenging.
6. If we search “infidelity” in a dictionary we find the following definition:
“Opposed to morality. Especially concerning when male and female relations go astray.”
But lets also search some synonyms.
7. Then we find adultery, assignation, cheating, affair, rotten meeting, secret rendezvous etc... well affair affair... but rotten meeting, ... I like it!
*impossible to sort out the nuances of different words for affair, so I listed a bunch of synonyms.
8. They say in Kyōka Izumis book “maps of female relations” it is less about a lack of ethics, is that not interesting?
*despite thinking about this sentence for awhile I’m sure I failed- curious how others translated it!
9. The deeper nuance is that for men and women to become rotten they must first have been a delicious food.
* I wrenched the grammar around every which way but *i think* this is the meaning...
10. Speaking of rotten and delicious, in China there is a delicacy called “rotten tofu” made by fermenting koji with tofu.
11. Of course the smell is strong, some people will keep their distance, but it can still be used as a delicious flavoring.
After posting I read through the other translations. There are some very talented people replying to this newsletter! Would definitely write some passages differently now, but learned a lot from everyone.
I was also really impressed by everyone's ability to translate this challenging passage so well. Will definitely try this type of communal translation again in the future.
Hahah I wouldn't hold it against you if you cried! But really great that you decided to do it all over again. You did such a great job. I think you were very close with sentence 8. The point here is that 腐れ合う is much more enticing than all those other definitions that are simply forms of moral condemnation.
The narrator-protagonist strikes me as unapologetic and proud in the uniqueness of her inclination, with slight distain for the “normal”heterosexual relationship, so I tried to portray her as such. I took some liberty with the translation however, since Japanese structures doesn’t exactly fit English ones, so I mainly focused on the conveyance of meaning. Hopefully I wasn't too far off.
I have a fond interest in cheating with other people’s husbands. It is something I would love to shout on top of the world, though the responses would most likely be stones from all directions, and followed by curses such as “shameless slut”! I am struck with wonder and surprise, when caught in the act, at the resurrection of these out-of-style curses - “Whore! Vixen! Thieving cat!” - or so it goes. My heart truly goes out to the poor cats and foxes.
When I went and look up “Impropriety” in the dictionary, it is written thus: “the violation of morality, particularly a deviation from the humanistic relationship between a man and woman; or, an act in this fashion.”
And, incidentally, I ended up searching into similar words; adultery, cheating, decadence, friends with benefits, intimacy, hook-up, secrecy, affair ... well, there they are... But ah! decadence…it rolls right off my tongue.
Somehow, the word seems to fit right into the opening lines of Izumi Kyouka’s work “Maternal Genealogy” or something. Rather than the definitions of the words themselves, “lacking morals” or whatever, isn’t it a sort of fascination that intrigues me? The fascination of a man-woman relationship nuanced with savoring a gourmet dish right before it spoils.
Delicious in decadence. In other words, it is the malt-fermented tofu, originating from China and her fermented bean curds; this tofu has a particularly strong odor, enough to keep some people at bay, but when used as a condiment it is quite exquisite.
incidentally, 「婦系図」is listed in 国語大辞典 as 一門の繁栄のために犠牲となった女たちを描く。後年脚色され新派悲劇の代表的狂言となった。
"a portrayal of the martyr sacrifices of the women for the prosperity of the family clan. The work was dramatized in later years and became one of the representative plays for modern (Japanese) tragedy schools."
I wonder if this was to suggest that the protagonist saw herself as a heroic figure of sorts.
To be honest, some parts were terribly difficult, but nevertheless very enjoyable. My only reservation would be localizing 好み as "rolls right off my tongue", but there are so many food references! I couldn't help popping in a dad joke. haha.
For the particularily tricky part 7, my references were 日本国語大辞典(Nihon Kokugo Daijiten), デジタル大辞泉(digital Daijisen), 明鏡国語辞典 (Meikyou) (I would recommend 明鏡国語辞典 to anyone who's just starting to look into monolingual dictionaries, it's one of the more straightforward and simple dictionaries)
姦淫 - 道義にはずれた性的関係をもつこと having immoral sexual relations
姦通 - 道徳や法にそむいた関係をもつこと。特に、既婚者が、配偶者以外の異性と肉体関係をもつこと。(same as above, plus) especially, sexual relation with the opposite sex other than your partner or spouse.
私通 - 夫婦でない男女がひそかに肉体関係を持つこと。密通。sexual relations between a man and woman who are not married to each other. (same as 密通)
出来合う - （２）男女がひそかに情を通じる。a man and woman becoming intimate in secret.
内通 - ②ひそかに情を交わすこと。密通。私通。a man and woman having romantic (and sexual) relations in secret
密事 - ②ひそかに男女が情事を行なうこと。a man and woman conducting affair in secret.
密通 - ②配偶者以外の人とひそかに性的関係を結ぶこと。私通。(mostly same as 姦通)
to be fair most of these aren't really distinct from and can be substituted by each other, so I just used the more common English synonyms in their place.
腐れ合う
① 二つ以上のものがいっしょに腐る。腐って混じり合う。two or more things that rot together.
② 男女が不義の縁を結ぶ。また、その縁がたち切れないことをののしっていう。野合する。A man and a woman enter into an illicit relationship; and/or lamenting that fact that they cannot detach themselves from it. a illicit/common-law relation (in which there is no formal marriage but are still considered married)
I don't really think we have a word for this in English, but the problem is this word is quite central to the passage. I think the closest I got to was "mutual-decadence" or "mutual-degeneracy", but it just sounded strange. I ended up choosing decadence because it fit better with fermentation tofu part.
Sorry, didn't notice before that you already answered my previous question here...I quite like "mutual degeneracy", even if it doesn't sound normal. It's at least a way to highlight the prominence of this word here.
Hi Cadence, this is great! You were so thorough in your research. It's so interesting to see the differences in choices people make when translating such a seemingly simple text. Decadence for 腐れ合う is a great find! Do you think there is a way to incorporate the ～合う part of the verb here? Thanks for your contribution :)
My hobby is stealing sleep from other people's husbands. I’d like to shout things like that to the entire world. Although rocks would probably come flying from all directions. And then insults like “this evil woman!”. When my affair was discovered, I was surprised to hear old-fashioned insults like bitch, vixen and thieving cat. I feel bad for the foxes and cats.
I tried searching “adultery” in the dictionary and this came up:
"To be immoral. Especially to stray from the correct path in a relationship."
And then, I kept looking up more words, obviously. "fornication", "affair", “cheating”, “kusureau” “infidelity” “liaison”... and so on. But, “kusureau”... I like it!
It looks like a word that would appear in Izumi Kyouka's "Onna Keizu", but Isn't it way more intriguing than something meaning "to be immoral"? It feels like it has the nuance of comparing a couple to a delicious food on the verge of rotting.
Talking about deliciously rotted, there is a Chinese condiment called fǔrǔ made from fermented tofu with Aspergillus. It has such a strong smell that some people avoid it just for that, but used as a seasoning it's delicious.
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It was pretty hard, I’m not familiar with adultery related vocabulary hahah. But it was fun! I’d love to hear any corrections as I’m sure I may have some mistakes. Also, for the passage where she looked up words in the dictionary, I decided to just put random English words related to adultery rather than translations of the Japanese ones, because they all literally translate to “adultery” with different nuances. However, for 腐れ合う, as it was mentioned later on, I was between writing “rotten meeting” or leaving it like “kusareau”. I still don’t know what's best, but when I read translations, I prefer to read the Japanese word in romaji rather than a made-up translation because I can then search it in Japanese for the real meaning.
Haha it's probably a good thing that you're not familiar with adultery related vocabulary...
One tip: 寝盗る or 寝取る is one verb. It doesn't mean to steal sleep, but to sleep with someone else's partner (and thereby stealing them away). This is also a better fit in the context. Thanks so much for your translation, you did such a good job!
Here is my very very very poor attempt. It was extremely hard, as I still lack the knowledge and skills of the Japanese language even to simply read, let alone translate such wonderful work. I took a go at sentence 7 and 8. I'm still very much a beginner, and I know many of you out there are really capable at translating and reading those lovely novels. How would think translating two sentences would be that hard??
⑦そしたら、(then)姦淫、(adultery) 姦通、腐れ合う、(rotting, coming together)私通、(adultery)出来合う(to become intimate with)、内通(secret, understanding)、密事 (adultery)、密通…とまあ、出(で)て来(く)る出(で)て来る(to come out appear)……しかし(prostitute)、腐れ合うって、……好みだ(liking, taste)！⑧何でも(anything)、泉鏡花のfountain spring flower mirror)(「婦系図」(family tree of a married women??)とやら(uncertainty or information from second hand)に登場する(to make an appearance)言葉 (language, dialect words, manner of speaking)らしいが (seeming appearing)、倫理 (ethics, morals)にあら (it is not so, never mind)ずなんて意味 (such a thing as meaning)のものより(then)、ずっと(all along))そそられる( to be interested in)ではないか(isn’t it, shouldn’t we)
This is a more of a translation, though every bad, so please ignore.
Then, adultery, adultery, rotting, adultery, done, adultery, adultery, adultery, adultery ... Well, come out, come out......but rotting,...... I like it! Anything seems to be a word that appears in Izumi Kyoka's"genealogy of women,"but isn't it much more intriguing than something that has meaning without ethics?
Then, adultery, adultery, rotting, private communication, done, adultery, secret affair, fornication......Well, come out come out......But rotting,...... It's my favorite! Anything seems to be a word that appears in Izumi Kyoka's"genealogy of women
Hi Koppa, very brave that you picked the arguably most difficult sentence!
One tip: 出て来る出て来る refers to the fact that there was an endless stream of synonyms that came out (of the dictionary). If you want to say "come out" you would say 出て来い (imperative form).
Thanks for this contribution, you did really well!
Thank you so much for your encouragement and explanation. I didn’t realize these sentences were the hardest of the lot. Are there any good verb conjugation books you can recommend? At this point I learnt the polite forms, but now I'm moving on to the short forms in quoted speech and learning to form sentences like この本は難しくて良いと思います。The problem I have is that conjugation of these forms seems different in many textbooks. This is seems also the case with adjectives, like 静かだった seems like 静かでした is better?; but the books I have from Kodansha do use the だったform. Especially in the informal speech or short form, as Genki calls it, there are many differences. How do you know when to use what? I’m a bit lost. I know this is the very very basic and indeed when seeing all the talented people on this forum, like Jef pointed out, I still have a long way to go and feel a bit ashamed of my limited level. I'm glad I tried translating the hard sentences and I have learnt many new vocabulary in the process, vocabulary that isn't in Genki I or in any other textbook I believe. I thought I would never be able to translate anything, and I couldn't really, but the fact that I tried does make me feel better. So thank you very much, for the challenge Bunsuke, by the way Bunsuke in kanji, what would that be???
You did really well, the fact is that you need to keep doing this, even if you feel you could have done better. This is the only way to make progress. The important thing is that you keep at it.
Hi everyone, first time interacting here! I love the idea of group translation and comparing notes. Below is my rendering of the whole passage - it definitely took a few hours and more than a few dictionaries! I chose to render it more idiomatically than literally, to get the author's brilliant air of IDGAF. I've also made a few annotations at the bottom over passages/decisions I thought were particularly difficult or stimulating as a language learner/translator. Hope everyone enjoys!
“I like sleeping with people’s husbands.” I’d like to shout that, or something like it, so everyone in the world could hear, but I’d probably get stones flying at me from all directions. Then they’d curse at me, saying things like “What a corrupt woman!”.* I’m surprised that, for some reason, these old-fashioned terms of abuse make a comeback whenever adultery is uncovered. Slut, bitch, vixen; I feel sorry for dogs and foxes.
When I looked up the word ‘adultery’ in a dictionary, I found this:
“A morally transgressive act, specifically violating the morality of a relationship between a man and a woman. Also sb. who commits such an act.”
While I was at it, I also looked up its synonyms. Fornication, illicit meeting, rotten affair, private meeting, secret affair, secret meeting…** The list just goes on and on. But ‘rotten affair’, that’s one I love. It sounds like a phrase that might have come out of Izumi Kyōka’s play ‘The Genealogy of Women’. Setting aside the fact that it means something immoral, isn’t the phrase just totally exciting? It makes it seem like the affair is some delicious meal, just before it goes bad.
Like Chinese fermented tofu, which is a dish that’s gone off but tastes good.*** It has quite a pungent smell. Although there are some people who won’t come near it because it stinks, it’s delicious when it's added to a main dish.****
*This was harder to translate than at first glance! The problem really comes from the こういう古めかしい罵倒語 from the next line, meaning the term needs to sound old-fashioned. So I went with 'corrupt', which I think is more out-of-line with young people's contemporary morality than something like 'evil' or 'bad'.
**This I definitely found the hardest section to translate, because A) it hinges upon having an English equivalent for 腐れ合う that is also a plausible synonym for 'adultery', and B) the list is intentionally meant to sound repetitive, with lots of 通's and 事's, etc. I found that because A) is really intractable (if you look in a dictionary you simply will not find anything!), pursuing B) was more fruitful, so I chose to make a list with lots of 'affairs' etc. and add rotten as an adjective.
***The grammar here is really tough for a literal translation so I've done a fair bit of heavy restructuring. I think the comparison is what's important, so I've shifted it around to make it as clear as possible. Another problem is that the term 'fermented tofu', which is afaik the most common term for the foodstuff, is self-explanatory in English whereas Yamada provides a kind of parse in Japanese. Because of this I chose to delete the entire line これは...もの in 10, which would sound repetitive/pointless in English.
****This is another slightly loose interpretation, but what I thought was most important to convey was again the metaphor. I read Yamada as basically saying this was what cheating felt like - not the main course, but a sidedish - so I gave a rendering that would highlight that!
I'm just reviewing my translation and realised that the beginning of 10. is probably better rendered something, "as for a food that tastes good even when it's gone bad...' because it's meant to contrast line 9, instead of providing a direct example. Consider it an edit!
Hi Henry, thanks so much for joining in and for writing such detailed notes with your translation. Haha yes, the 古めかしい sets you up for trouble later on...And restructuring is sometimes unavoidable. For the purposes of this platform, I tend to leave the original structures intact, so that it's easier for people to check whether they've understood the original. But even then, sometimes it cannot be helped. I loved your solution for 腐れ合う as "rotten affair". This was such a joy to read, thanks again!
My hobby is to steal and sleep with people's husbands. This, and also try to cry out loud in the center of the world. I will probably receive stones thrown from all directions thougth. Then, this naughty girl! kind of words, I may be shout abused. When it happens that I'm bring to light of adultery, for some reasons, this kind of old-fashioned denunciation speaking revival always surprised me. 'Bitch', 'mistress', 'catshit'... Poor dogs and cats.
I looked out for 'adultery' in the dictionnary and found this :
"Being against moral. Especially disrupt the relation between men and women. And, ..."
then, at the same time, I also had a look to the synonyms.
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Here my morning japanese training. I'm very sorry since English is not my native language (but it's French so quite close). I gave up after the synonyms part as I already struggled to find animals-related insults. Haha I would be more inspired in French for sure.
Thanks for the invitation Bunsuke-san. Let's see how it goes. By the way I think this novel was transleted in French and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for refreshing my reader memory.
Wow you got so far! This is great...now I'm also curious what your translation would look like in French! (And I think it's incredible that this book has already been translated and published in France...so quick!)
As a conversation point, have you ever tried Google translate for your excepts? As much as I am not a Googlephil - the opposite - I must admit their Japanese translations seem very good ( to my eyes) - at least generally producing human sounding sentences
I picked sentences 1 to 6, not having much time this morning, but I will tackle the rest of the text later today :-) .. I'm not a native english speaker but I thought I give it a go. Sometimes I did stray a little from the literal sense, to what sounded a bit better to me.. I welcome any suggestions or corrections!
I like to sleep with married men. I would like to shout it from the middle of the earth. Maybe stones will come flying at me from all directions. "Look at this depraved woman!", I will be cursed at like this.
It's surprising to me that when it comes to immorality, a certain old fashioned vocabulary comes to light.
"Minx", "Teasing fox" "Thieving cat". Those poor animals..
I looked up "immorality" in the dictionary and this came up:
"Contrary to moral principles. In particular, a deviation from the conventional relationship between man and woman".
Once I was at it, I tried to look up some synonyms too.
I sleep with married men. I'd love to shout it from the rooftops, but I'd probably get pelted with stones. And they'd call me names. "Whore!" You'd be surprised to hear all the old-timey insults people bring back when they find out you've been having an affair. "Coquette!" "She-fox!" "Thieving cat!" What did foxes and cats ever do to you?
I looked up "impropriety" in the dictionary, and here's what I found:
"An immoral act. Especially, an act that strays from proper relations between the sexes."
And then I checked out some related phrases. Fornication, illicit tryst, rotting away together, private encounter, doing it, betrayal, our little secret, misconduct... the list goes on and on. But I have a clear favorite: rotting away together. It might have first appeared in Kyoka Izumi's novel "A Woman's Stock." Such a juicy phrase, isn't it? Even beyond the world of immoral acts. It suggests the image of a man and a woman as overripe food, just on the cusp of spoiling, yet incredibly delicious.
Rotten yet delicious... Chinese fermented tofu comes to mind. They start with fresh tofu and then introduce bacteria, leaving it to ferment. The stench so overpowering that some people can't stand to be anywhere near it, but it brings a deep, satisfying flavor to food.
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To me, the most important part of this passage is the speaker's unapologetic desire for affairs. That point of view informed a lot of my translation decisions.
It's tempting to translate 女狐 and 泥棒猫 as something that sounds old-timey in English, but to preserve the joke on the following line about foxes and cats, I had to stick with phrases that referenced those animals. I still think they sound stilted enough that it comes off as quaint.
The list of related phrases was a fun challenge. I found the most success with thinking hard about the kanji used in those words and then coming up with English phrases euphemisms for adultery that had similar connotations.
And then we arrive at the main word of the piece: 腐れ合う. What a great word! I played with some more natural sounding translations but they all lost the core meaning: two people corrupting each other, destroying themselves but in the process making something pungent with flavor and life. Blue cheese. Sauerkraut. Miso paste. So I left it as the more literal "rotting away together" which will definitely make the reader pause for a second but will all make sense as they continue reading.
Seth, this is a brilliant translation, thanks for your contribution. I like what you've done with 腐れ合う, very creative!
Wow! You had some great solutions to some of the trickier parts of this passage. Also now I think I understand what the second sentence means. Taking literally it makes no sense in English.
oh nice! tryst is a good one.
That was tough and I needed a dictionary lots! Here is my attempt at translating:
My hobby is sleeping with people’s husbands. It’s something I want to shout from the centre of the world. Rocks are probably going to come flying from all directions (for saying that). So, what an evil woman! So I will curse at her. When the adultery is discovered, I’m surprised that such old-fashioned swear words are revived. “Hussy”, and “She-fox”, and “Mud-cat”. The poor foxes and cats.
When you look up adultery in the dictionary here is what’s there:
A thing against morality. Especially leaving the righteous path of male and female relations. Also, the person.
And, incidentally, I also searched and found similar words. They are...“illicit sex”, “wicked communications”, “rotten meeting”, “being intimate”, “collusion”, “liaison”, “secret commute”...and well, they keep coming and coming...however “rotten meeting”...that’s to my taste! It’s like something that would be said on stage in Izumi Kyouto’s “Family Tree” but, rather than having a meaning of unethical, it is completely fascinating, don’t you think? Hidden within it is the nuance that men and women are the most tasty when they are just about to rot.
When I say rotting is tasty, I mean like Chinese fermented tofu, which is tofu glazed with yeast and left to ferment. It’s a rather strong smell and, to some people, stinks enough to keep a distance from the person (eating it). However, used as a seasoning it’s delicious.
Hi BeerGuy, this is great! You went ahead and translated the whole thing. Curious to see how others will deal with certain passages as well. This was a tough one in places, wasn't it? Great work :)
I want to cry, I typed out the whole translation in the app and it didn’t save😂 let’s try again...
1. My hobby is sleeping with other women’s husbands. For me it is like a cry from the center of the earth.
* I have no idea what to do with that second sentence. I understand all the words individually, but it’s not clear to me what the author is driving at.
2. Probably stones will be thrown at me from all sides.
3. But, “lascivious woman!” I will be cursed.
4. When adultery is discovered it is surprising the resort to old curses.
5. “Bitch” or “vixen” or “thieving cat.” How sad for foxes and cats.
*this sentence is simple but raises some interesting translation questions! For example 女狐 has an exact English equivalent “vixen” which means female fox, and with a sexual overtone. But in English is has a fun, naughty, sexy connotation and I get the impression in Japanese 女狐is a pure insult like “bitch” meaning female dog is in English. Also thieving cat makes no sense in English “home wrecker” would be better but then translating the following sentence would be challenging.
6. If we search “infidelity” in a dictionary we find the following definition:
“Opposed to morality. Especially concerning when male and female relations go astray.”
But lets also search some synonyms.
7. Then we find adultery, assignation, cheating, affair, rotten meeting, secret rendezvous etc... well affair affair... but rotten meeting, ... I like it!
*impossible to sort out the nuances of different words for affair, so I listed a bunch of synonyms.
8. They say in Kyōka Izumis book “maps of female relations” it is less about a lack of ethics, is that not interesting?
*despite thinking about this sentence for awhile I’m sure I failed- curious how others translated it!
9. The deeper nuance is that for men and women to become rotten they must first have been a delicious food.
* I wrenched the grammar around every which way but *i think* this is the meaning...
10. Speaking of rotten and delicious, in China there is a delicacy called “rotten tofu” made by fermenting koji with tofu.
11. Of course the smell is strong, some people will keep their distance, but it can still be used as a delicious flavoring.
After posting I read through the other translations. There are some very talented people replying to this newsletter! Would definitely write some passages differently now, but learned a lot from everyone.
I was also really impressed by everyone's ability to translate this challenging passage so well. Will definitely try this type of communal translation again in the future.
Hahah I wouldn't hold it against you if you cried! But really great that you decided to do it all over again. You did such a great job. I think you were very close with sentence 8. The point here is that 腐れ合う is much more enticing than all those other definitions that are simply forms of moral condemnation.
The narrator-protagonist strikes me as unapologetic and proud in the uniqueness of her inclination, with slight distain for the “normal”heterosexual relationship, so I tried to portray her as such. I took some liberty with the translation however, since Japanese structures doesn’t exactly fit English ones, so I mainly focused on the conveyance of meaning. Hopefully I wasn't too far off.
I have a fond interest in cheating with other people’s husbands. It is something I would love to shout on top of the world, though the responses would most likely be stones from all directions, and followed by curses such as “shameless slut”! I am struck with wonder and surprise, when caught in the act, at the resurrection of these out-of-style curses - “Whore! Vixen! Thieving cat!” - or so it goes. My heart truly goes out to the poor cats and foxes.
When I went and look up “Impropriety” in the dictionary, it is written thus: “the violation of morality, particularly a deviation from the humanistic relationship between a man and woman; or, an act in this fashion.”
And, incidentally, I ended up searching into similar words; adultery, cheating, decadence, friends with benefits, intimacy, hook-up, secrecy, affair ... well, there they are... But ah! decadence…it rolls right off my tongue.
Somehow, the word seems to fit right into the opening lines of Izumi Kyouka’s work “Maternal Genealogy” or something. Rather than the definitions of the words themselves, “lacking morals” or whatever, isn’t it a sort of fascination that intrigues me? The fascination of a man-woman relationship nuanced with savoring a gourmet dish right before it spoils.
Delicious in decadence. In other words, it is the malt-fermented tofu, originating from China and her fermented bean curds; this tofu has a particularly strong odor, enough to keep some people at bay, but when used as a condiment it is quite exquisite.
incidentally, 「婦系図」is listed in 国語大辞典 as 一門の繁栄のために犠牲となった女たちを描く。後年脚色され新派悲劇の代表的狂言となった。
"a portrayal of the martyr sacrifices of the women for the prosperity of the family clan. The work was dramatized in later years and became one of the representative plays for modern (Japanese) tragedy schools."
I wonder if this was to suggest that the protagonist saw herself as a heroic figure of sorts.
It's a brilliant book by Kyoka, and still available in bunkobon. Maybe we should try to do a communal translation of this work next time...
To be honest, some parts were terribly difficult, but nevertheless very enjoyable. My only reservation would be localizing 好み as "rolls right off my tongue", but there are so many food references! I couldn't help popping in a dad joke. haha.
For the particularily tricky part 7, my references were 日本国語大辞典(Nihon Kokugo Daijiten), デジタル大辞泉(digital Daijisen), 明鏡国語辞典 (Meikyou) (I would recommend 明鏡国語辞典 to anyone who's just starting to look into monolingual dictionaries, it's one of the more straightforward and simple dictionaries)
姦淫 - 道義にはずれた性的関係をもつこと having immoral sexual relations
姦通 - 道徳や法にそむいた関係をもつこと。特に、既婚者が、配偶者以外の異性と肉体関係をもつこと。(same as above, plus) especially, sexual relation with the opposite sex other than your partner or spouse.
私通 - 夫婦でない男女がひそかに肉体関係を持つこと。密通。sexual relations between a man and woman who are not married to each other. (same as 密通)
出来合う - （２）男女がひそかに情を通じる。a man and woman becoming intimate in secret.
内通 - ②ひそかに情を交わすこと。密通。私通。a man and woman having romantic (and sexual) relations in secret
密事 - ②ひそかに男女が情事を行なうこと。a man and woman conducting affair in secret.
密通 - ②配偶者以外の人とひそかに性的関係を結ぶこと。私通。(mostly same as 姦通)
to be fair most of these aren't really distinct from and can be substituted by each other, so I just used the more common English synonyms in their place.
腐れ合う
① 二つ以上のものがいっしょに腐る。腐って混じり合う。two or more things that rot together.
② 男女が不義の縁を結ぶ。また、その縁がたち切れないことをののしっていう。野合する。A man and a woman enter into an illicit relationship; and/or lamenting that fact that they cannot detach themselves from it. a illicit/common-law relation (in which there is no formal marriage but are still considered married)
I don't really think we have a word for this in English, but the problem is this word is quite central to the passage. I think the closest I got to was "mutual-decadence" or "mutual-degeneracy", but it just sounded strange. I ended up choosing decadence because it fit better with fermentation tofu part.
Here is also an example sentence from「爛」by 徳田秋声:
お増は、お雪が先に見込みもない芸人などに引き摺られているのを、歯痒く思ったが、長いあいだ腐れあった二人のなかは、手のつけようもないほど廃頽しきっているのであった。
So this picture of decadence you painted is spot on!
Sorry, didn't notice before that you already answered my previous question here...I quite like "mutual degeneracy", even if it doesn't sound normal. It's at least a way to highlight the prominence of this word here.
Also loved the dad joke btw ;)
Hi Cadence, this is great! You were so thorough in your research. It's so interesting to see the differences in choices people make when translating such a seemingly simple text. Decadence for 腐れ合う is a great find! Do you think there is a way to incorporate the ～合う part of the verb here? Thanks for your contribution :)
I tried translating the whole passage:
My hobby is stealing sleep from other people's husbands. I’d like to shout things like that to the entire world. Although rocks would probably come flying from all directions. And then insults like “this evil woman!”. When my affair was discovered, I was surprised to hear old-fashioned insults like bitch, vixen and thieving cat. I feel bad for the foxes and cats.
I tried searching “adultery” in the dictionary and this came up:
"To be immoral. Especially to stray from the correct path in a relationship."
And then, I kept looking up more words, obviously. "fornication", "affair", “cheating”, “kusureau” “infidelity” “liaison”... and so on. But, “kusureau”... I like it!
It looks like a word that would appear in Izumi Kyouka's "Onna Keizu", but Isn't it way more intriguing than something meaning "to be immoral"? It feels like it has the nuance of comparing a couple to a delicious food on the verge of rotting.
Talking about deliciously rotted, there is a Chinese condiment called fǔrǔ made from fermented tofu with Aspergillus. It has such a strong smell that some people avoid it just for that, but used as a seasoning it's delicious.
-----comment----
It was pretty hard, I’m not familiar with adultery related vocabulary hahah. But it was fun! I’d love to hear any corrections as I’m sure I may have some mistakes. Also, for the passage where she looked up words in the dictionary, I decided to just put random English words related to adultery rather than translations of the Japanese ones, because they all literally translate to “adultery” with different nuances. However, for 腐れ合う, as it was mentioned later on, I was between writing “rotten meeting” or leaving it like “kusareau”. I still don’t know what's best, but when I read translations, I prefer to read the Japanese word in romaji rather than a made-up translation because I can then search it in Japanese for the real meaning.
Haha it's probably a good thing that you're not familiar with adultery related vocabulary...
One tip: 寝盗る or 寝取る is one verb. It doesn't mean to steal sleep, but to sleep with someone else's partner (and thereby stealing them away). This is also a better fit in the context. Thanks so much for your translation, you did such a good job!
Here is my very very very poor attempt. It was extremely hard, as I still lack the knowledge and skills of the Japanese language even to simply read, let alone translate such wonderful work. I took a go at sentence 7 and 8. I'm still very much a beginner, and I know many of you out there are really capable at translating and reading those lovely novels. How would think translating two sentences would be that hard??
⑦そしたら、(then)姦淫、(adultery) 姦通、腐れ合う、(rotting, coming together)私通、(adultery)出来合う(to become intimate with)、内通(secret, understanding)、密事 (adultery)、密通…とまあ、出(で)て来(く)る出(で)て来る(to come out appear)……しかし(prostitute)、腐れ合うって、……好みだ(liking, taste)！⑧何でも(anything)、泉鏡花のfountain spring flower mirror)(「婦系図」(family tree of a married women??)とやら(uncertainty or information from second hand)に登場する(to make an appearance)言葉 (language, dialect words, manner of speaking)らしいが (seeming appearing)、倫理 (ethics, morals)にあら (it is not so, never mind)ずなんて意味 (such a thing as meaning)のものより(then)、ずっと(all along))そそられる( to be interested in)ではないか(isn’t it, shouldn’t we)
This is a more of a translation, though every bad, so please ignore.
Then, adultery, adultery, rotting, adultery, done, adultery, adultery, adultery, adultery ... Well, come out, come out......but rotting,...... I like it! Anything seems to be a word that appears in Izumi Kyoka's"genealogy of women,"but isn't it much more intriguing than something that has meaning without ethics?
Then, adultery, adultery, rotting, private communication, done, adultery, secret affair, fornication......Well, come out come out......But rotting,...... It's my favorite! Anything seems to be a word that appears in Izumi Kyoka's"genealogy of women
Hi Koppa, very brave that you picked the arguably most difficult sentence!
One tip: 出て来る出て来る refers to the fact that there was an endless stream of synonyms that came out (of the dictionary). If you want to say "come out" you would say 出て来い (imperative form).
Thanks for this contribution, you did really well!
Thank you so much for your encouragement and explanation. I didn’t realize these sentences were the hardest of the lot. Are there any good verb conjugation books you can recommend? At this point I learnt the polite forms, but now I'm moving on to the short forms in quoted speech and learning to form sentences like この本は難しくて良いと思います。The problem I have is that conjugation of these forms seems different in many textbooks. This is seems also the case with adjectives, like 静かだった seems like 静かでした is better?; but the books I have from Kodansha do use the だったform. Especially in the informal speech or short form, as Genki calls it, there are many differences. How do you know when to use what? I’m a bit lost. I know this is the very very basic and indeed when seeing all the talented people on this forum, like Jef pointed out, I still have a long way to go and feel a bit ashamed of my limited level. I'm glad I tried translating the hard sentences and I have learnt many new vocabulary in the process, vocabulary that isn't in Genki I or in any other textbook I believe. I thought I would never be able to translate anything, and I couldn't really, but the fact that I tried does make me feel better. So thank you very much, for the challenge Bunsuke, by the way Bunsuke in kanji, what would that be???
You did really well, the fact is that you need to keep doing this, even if you feel you could have done better. This is the only way to make progress. The important thing is that you keep at it.
Bunsuke in kanji would be 文助.
Something went wrong, this is better.
Hi everyone, first time interacting here! I love the idea of group translation and comparing notes. Below is my rendering of the whole passage - it definitely took a few hours and more than a few dictionaries! I chose to render it more idiomatically than literally, to get the author's brilliant air of IDGAF. I've also made a few annotations at the bottom over passages/decisions I thought were particularly difficult or stimulating as a language learner/translator. Hope everyone enjoys!
“I like sleeping with people’s husbands.” I’d like to shout that, or something like it, so everyone in the world could hear, but I’d probably get stones flying at me from all directions. Then they’d curse at me, saying things like “What a corrupt woman!”.* I’m surprised that, for some reason, these old-fashioned terms of abuse make a comeback whenever adultery is uncovered. Slut, bitch, vixen; I feel sorry for dogs and foxes.
When I looked up the word ‘adultery’ in a dictionary, I found this:
“A morally transgressive act, specifically violating the morality of a relationship between a man and a woman. Also sb. who commits such an act.”
While I was at it, I also looked up its synonyms. Fornication, illicit meeting, rotten affair, private meeting, secret affair, secret meeting…** The list just goes on and on. But ‘rotten affair’, that’s one I love. It sounds like a phrase that might have come out of Izumi Kyōka’s play ‘The Genealogy of Women’. Setting aside the fact that it means something immoral, isn’t the phrase just totally exciting? It makes it seem like the affair is some delicious meal, just before it goes bad.
Like Chinese fermented tofu, which is a dish that’s gone off but tastes good.*** It has quite a pungent smell. Although there are some people who won’t come near it because it stinks, it’s delicious when it's added to a main dish.****
*This was harder to translate than at first glance! The problem really comes from the こういう古めかしい罵倒語 from the next line, meaning the term needs to sound old-fashioned. So I went with 'corrupt', which I think is more out-of-line with young people's contemporary morality than something like 'evil' or 'bad'.
**This I definitely found the hardest section to translate, because A) it hinges upon having an English equivalent for 腐れ合う that is also a plausible synonym for 'adultery', and B) the list is intentionally meant to sound repetitive, with lots of 通's and 事's, etc. I found that because A) is really intractable (if you look in a dictionary you simply will not find anything!), pursuing B) was more fruitful, so I chose to make a list with lots of 'affairs' etc. and add rotten as an adjective.
***The grammar here is really tough for a literal translation so I've done a fair bit of heavy restructuring. I think the comparison is what's important, so I've shifted it around to make it as clear as possible. Another problem is that the term 'fermented tofu', which is afaik the most common term for the foodstuff, is self-explanatory in English whereas Yamada provides a kind of parse in Japanese. Because of this I chose to delete the entire line これは...もの in 10, which would sound repetitive/pointless in English.
****This is another slightly loose interpretation, but what I thought was most important to convey was again the metaphor. I read Yamada as basically saying this was what cheating felt like - not the main course, but a sidedish - so I gave a rendering that would highlight that!
I'm just reviewing my translation and realised that the beginning of 10. is probably better rendered something, "as for a food that tastes good even when it's gone bad...' because it's meant to contrast line 9, instead of providing a direct example. Consider it an edit!
I agree, this revision is a better fit.
Hi Henry, thanks so much for joining in and for writing such detailed notes with your translation. Haha yes, the 古めかしい sets you up for trouble later on...And restructuring is sometimes unavoidable. For the purposes of this platform, I tend to leave the original structures intact, so that it's easier for people to check whether they've understood the original. But even then, sometimes it cannot be helped. I loved your solution for 腐れ合う as "rotten affair". This was such a joy to read, thanks again!
Sentences from 1 to 6.
My hobby is to steal and sleep with people's husbands. This, and also try to cry out loud in the center of the world. I will probably receive stones thrown from all directions thougth. Then, this naughty girl! kind of words, I may be shout abused. When it happens that I'm bring to light of adultery, for some reasons, this kind of old-fashioned denunciation speaking revival always surprised me. 'Bitch', 'mistress', 'catshit'... Poor dogs and cats.
I looked out for 'adultery' in the dictionnary and found this :
"Being against moral. Especially disrupt the relation between men and women. And, ..."
then, at the same time, I also had a look to the synonyms.
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Here my morning japanese training. I'm very sorry since English is not my native language (but it's French so quite close). I gave up after the synonyms part as I already struggled to find animals-related insults. Haha I would be more inspired in French for sure.
Thanks for the invitation Bunsuke-san. Let's see how it goes. By the way I think this novel was transleted in French and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for refreshing my reader memory.
Lo
Wow you got so far! This is great...now I'm also curious what your translation would look like in French! (And I think it's incredible that this book has already been translated and published in France...so quick!)
As a conversation point, have you ever tried Google translate for your excepts? As much as I am not a Googlephil - the opposite - I must admit their Japanese translations seem very good ( to my eyes) - at least generally producing human sounding sentences
Really? That means Google has worked hard on their AI. It wasn't like that in the past...
Hello!
I picked sentences 1 to 6, not having much time this morning, but I will tackle the rest of the text later today :-) .. I'm not a native english speaker but I thought I give it a go. Sometimes I did stray a little from the literal sense, to what sounded a bit better to me.. I welcome any suggestions or corrections!
I like to sleep with married men. I would like to shout it from the middle of the earth. Maybe stones will come flying at me from all directions. "Look at this depraved woman!", I will be cursed at like this.
It's surprising to me that when it comes to immorality, a certain old fashioned vocabulary comes to light.
"Minx", "Teasing fox" "Thieving cat". Those poor animals..
I looked up "immorality" in the dictionary and this came up:
"Contrary to moral principles. In particular, a deviation from the conventional relationship between man and woman".
Once I was at it, I tried to look up some synonyms too.