Today, I’d like to talk about Japanese language education. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You’re a diligent student. You learn all of the vocabulary and grammar in your textbook. You maybe even take a Japanese language class in school or at an institute. Once you’ve mastered the basics, you go out into the world. You open a Japanese book or try to read a Japanese newspaper, or you go to Japan and ask for directions in Japanese. At that moment you notice something disheartening: after all those hours of dedicated studying, you still have trouble following the plot, or understanding what’s going on exactly. You can ask for directions, but cannot understand the reply.
We might be inclined to think that this is normal. You learn the basics from textbooks, and then immerse yourself in ‘real’ Japanese in Japan. Though this is true to some extent, I cannot shake the feeling that Japanese language education, especially at the intermediate and advanced levels, is fundamentally flawed.
So what’s the problem? I feel that, although these textbooks pretend to help you improve your level of Japanese, they are actually designed to limit your progress. Often, Japanese language education for foreigners alienates rather than includes. It feeds and perpetuates the image of what a language student ‘should’ look like: someone who aspires to fluency, but never obtains it.
It starts early, for example, with self-introductions. You’re told that you should say 私は文助です. Though this teaches you the basic sentence structure of AはBです, it doesn’t tell you that when you introduce yourself in Japanese you almost never use 私は. You simply say 文助です (or 文助と申します in more formal situations). Already, you’re being taught something that’s correct only in theory. But, as is often the case, theory shatters at first impact with reality. This persists in the explanation of verb conjugations: “simply take the -masu form, take away -masu, and stick -nai at the end to make a negative verb. Oh, and by the way, in some cases the -i sound before the -masu turns into -a when you make a negative verb”. In this way, you’re never taught how verb conjugations actually work. Yes, verbs are difficult. But instead of trying to mask this difficulty by artificially reconstructing it for easy consumption, surely we want our studying tools to say: “yes it’s hard, but here’s how you can overcome that difficulty and do it anyway”.
These textbooks present language as a neatly wrapped package. But a language that lives and breathes is much messier. There is a disconnect between the dependency that Japanese language education creates – on yet more textbooks, flash cards, etc. – and the actual language you’re trying to learn, a language that is always in flux and is continuously being renegotiated through communal usage.
Frankly, I find the attitude of this type of language education insulting. When you start out learning a language, it feels nice to be taken by the hand. But when such an approach carries over into the intermediate and advanced levels, it becomes condescending. By shielding us from the difficulty of the language, they treat us like children, incapable of comprehending language when it colors outside the lines. This is a serious underestimation of people’s ability to learn complex languages.
The only way, then, to gain access to a language, is to participate. Once you have a grasp of the basics, take the thing you imagined yourself doing ‘at some point in the future’ and go do it today. Perhaps you want to be able to read novels in Japanese, or watch a tv show without subtitles, or write a blog in Japanese. Go do it! It will be tough at first, but over time you’ll get to reap the rewards. You can always turn to our community here if you get stuck.
Japanese language education is designed to make us believe that advanced levels of fluency are unobtainable. Let’s prove them wrong.
I’d love to hear your thoughts. What is your experience with Japanese language education?
Japanese textbooks are certainly not “designed to limit your progress.” Textbooks are simply one tool for learning languages. They have their inadequacies, sure. But as you later stated, you have to be actively reading, speaking, listening, and consuming cultural media. Textbooks are sort of the jump start you need so you’re not completely lost.
Take your self introduction example. Look at an English language textbook. “Hello, my name is X. It is very nice to meet you.” Of course we know that “Hi, I’m X, nice to meet you” is much more natural. But so is “Hey there, X, pleasure.” A beginner needs a foothold to get started. Textbooks teach something that, while a little unnatural, is technically correct. Like you point out it’s a good pattern for AはBだ. Beginners need some easy early wins to feel excited.
And the more advanced you get, the harder it is to learn from a textbook because you have to create an understanding for yourself. Take a simple word like ところ. It has a surface level “place” meaning, but also I deeper abstract sense of “level” like in the grammar pattern どころか. I really only understood it after seeing it in action a bunch of times and forming my own complex understanding of its multifaceted meaning. I don’t think a textbook can do that for you.
Like you, I do translations to continue to improve my Japanese. Isn’t it so incredibly helpful? I don’t think a textbook or a class could or should replace the work we do on our own to improve.
To summarize, I don’t think Japanese education systems are the issue. I just think getting your brain to understand a new way of thinking and expressing is a monumental task that takes lots of approaches. And seeing your daily emails is a great reminder that there is a community out there on the same journey! Thank you.
Hi Seth, thank you so much for your thoughtful contribution.
In many ways, I completely agree with you! My statement was perhaps overly harsh, and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest we could or should ever do away with these types of textbooks. I simply feel that when you reach a certain level, it's important to dive into the deep end of the pool to see if you can swim, with the awareness that there is a shallow end that you can swim toward if you feel you are about to drown. But often, it feels as if these textbooks are keeping us at the shallow end of the pool: we get a taste of what it's like to be in the water, but we can only imagine what it would be like to swim on our own.
My essay is therefore a call for more alternative materials that encourage us to take the plunge. I feel that these kinds of tools are scarce to say the least, which is also reflected in the expression of frustration I sometimes detect in messages I receive from intermediate and advanced learners.
Thanks again! I always enjoy reading your carefully worded replies.
People can learn lots of things, but the only way to truly become fluent is to speak the language. I feel that sentiment is lost on language education in general. It's more about the written words, rather than speaking
Hi Ari, thanks for your comment. I completely understand this. When I look at the curriculum at my university, I see that the emphasis is definitely on grammar and reading, and much less on speaking. I always feel that the two work together. You need an understanding of the writing system in order to make sense of the language, but you need spoken Japanese to attain fluency that will ultimately also help your reading comprehension. Thanks for sharing this!
Thank you for responding and writing it. This line really resonated with me:
"Yes, verbs are difficult. But instead of trying to mask this difficulty by artificially reconstructing it for easy consumption, surely we want our studying tools to say: 'yes it’s hard, but here’s how you can overcome that difficulty and do it anyway'."
I am currently in the process of preparing JLPT N1, and I mostly agree with your critique of presenting language as a neatly packaged product. Most of all, I find the focus on business to be a good antidote for any enthusiasm I had.
Having done some studies on foreign language teaching, I understand that certain domains are necessary, and that I cannot realistically hope for a language curriculum to avoid highly formal language use and similar things and still be taken seriously. As many native speakers have to struggle with politeness, so do I. I am just pissed that some of the grammar patterns in my book aren't understood by my Japanese friends, either.
Having said that, I agree with what has already been said, and that any learner should be proactive in looking for resources, but I find that proposing exercises could go a long way of opening other media as possibilities. For example, when I helped a friend of mine studying, I made him read a short story by Murakami Haruki, without telling him who the author was. It made his day to learn that he could read his all time favourite author, albeit with some effort.
In short, I believe that the neat package is a necessary compromise, but it definitely should be paired with some space for exploring.
Hi Andrea, thanks for you comment. It seems that you, as do many others, share the frustration of feeling a disconnect between the content of textsbooks and the practical application of language. But it sounds like you've found a good balance. I especially like reading about the example of your friend. Of course, these things take some effort, but as you say, the rewards are 100x more satisfying.
Thanks again, and good luck with your JLPT prep! Let me know if I can help in any way.
I wholeheartedly agree with Bunsuke! And a great topic. In addition, personally I think an effective Japanese teaching system at the Intermediate and Above level should be one which can teach someone who DOES NOT already live in Japan, to apply what they learn at a TRUE intermediate and above level. I have many text books and many types of JLPT test prep books, and have passed N2. When it comes to usage in a real situation, however, I think I am really more at N3. I would love to have a teacher who help me do systematic drills at an advanced level, applicable in real and complex situation.
Hi Emma, it's always great to hear from you! I think you hit the nail on the head. The JLPT is by far the most conditioned, self-contained test out there. I hear so often that no one really ever encounters what they've learned on the test in real life. In my view, the only way to really progress to an advanced level is to read (novels, newspapers, etc.) and speak (business Japanese, etc.). This is also why I created this platform: I wanted to take away the (sometimes imaginary) hurdles when it comes to reading actual Japanese literature.
What kind of lessons/drills do you envision? Do you have any specific goals in mind for how you want to use your language skills?
Thanks again for your contribution. Let me know if there is anything I can do to assist you in your studies.
Hi Bunsuke, I would like to drill on using polite and proper expressions for various daily life scenarios and business like scenarios. :) I would like to stay in Japan for long term, and have it as one of my residences eventually. Thank you!
So many facets to this subject it is hard to know where to start. I suppose I need to put individual learning styles aside. There’s also innate ability. I have been learning the guitar for 50 years and am still terrible, yet nobody gives me a hard time about it. But in Japanese language - whoa - the judgements are hard and cutting. But textbooks and the Japanese system … well, I think all language textbooks for any language are suspect - but they are cost effective. Many good teachers abandon the text - but, it's hard work, and maintaining continuity over longer courses can be a problem.
My Japanese classroom experiences have been a real tragedy. Here you will find even worse mixed level situations as the market is smaller. Need I go on about Japanese teaching methodology? What methodology? My God, student speaking time was a sip of water in a dessert of monotonous explanation.
I took a couple of free courses thru the ward office and on top of the unskilled teaching, we had to suffer a bizarre discrimination and weird nationalism where on our field trip we visited a company and observed workers cleaning bathrooms. We even got to pitch in. Most of us had college degrees. We were in tears laughing at our situation.
Work related kanji were given to memorize without any foundation. Creativity was frowned upon. Just memorize how to write “I am deeply sorry for being late” because you will need it.
But, some people get it. We need to find the other path that won’t break the bank. I’m still looking. My kanji studies are coming a long well because it suits me. I write out your passages every morning. I really doubt that path leads through a Japanese language class.
Hi Paul, thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like you got a terrible deal with those courses offered by the ward office…
But I suppose it really depends on the teachers. I've had bad experiences (though never as extreme as your story) but I've also had excellent teachers in Japan. Though I haven't found any perfect method yet, I hope I can contribute to creating more intuitive materials that actually stimulate creativity and independence in learners. Is there any particular element that you're struggling with?
I agree Bunsuke. This is actually a large reason why I want to become a Japanese teacher myself and create my own way of tackling the pedagogy required to properly understand the language. I have never learned any Japanese in a classroom, and instead taught myself from nothing. Throughout all of the material that I've encountered, every single resource (with the minor exception of TextFugu) has the pitfall of starting learners in the middle of the language (masu form, etc, instead of dictionary form), without the proper formulas for verb conjugation, without explaining nor distinguishing particles properly, without explaining basic sentence structure theory (SOV and word+particle pairs), and without cultural context for proper usage (like you said, 私はサイです instead of just サイです). I had to come to these revelations on my own through interacting with the language on my own for so many years, and I've always said to myself, "If only I knew X, Y, and Z when I started, I would light-years ahead of where I am today". It's not today, but some time in the future I'll finish my "Logical Japanese" teaching material, and I hope it will help other learners get the proper introduction to the language that they deserve.
Hi Cysote, thanks for joining the discussion. It's incredible that you've been able to get this far just by teaching yourself. It must have been very hard to keep going, but it seems you've somehow been able to stay motivated. Incredible! I'd be interested to hear about your plans for educational materials. I'm also thinking about creating a different type of textbook. One that's more intuitive. Hope I'll be able to hear more about your experiences and the hurdles you've had to overcome. Thanks again!
I agree with you mostly. As others have said until you reach about the JLPT N3 level it's difficult to engage with native materials because you lack a critical mass of basic vocabulary and simple grammar structures. Beyond that though, I think I was able to progress faster by just struggling through novels, podcasts, movies and conversations with Japanese people (I was very fortunate to have friends and family that would humor me by having conversations in Japanese even when English would be easier for all involved.) I ditched textbooks altogether in favor of trying to learn from novels, and learning from context is much easier than trying to memorize isolated esoteric grammar rules.
You become good at something by just doing the activity. It sounds obvious but if you want to be a good distance runner, or guitar player or whatever, you have to dive in and do the activity, not read about it. Of course the same is true for language learning. We all have different reasons for learning Japanese, but I'm guessing no one, or almost no one's goal, is to get good at grammar exercises in books!
At the same time it never feels like I'm making progress until I reopen a novel I struggled through a year ago, and realize now I can understand the dialogue in a way I didn't the first time I floundered through it!
Hi Jeff, thanks for sharing this. This makes a lot of sense. I had this exact experience. During the summer of my first year of studying Japanese I attempted to read my first novel in Japanese. I wasn't able to finish it and I didn't feel like I'd made any progress. But when I returned to materials I had previous found challenging, many of these problems had resolved themselves, simply because of the exposure to language and the experience of struggling through it, as you also mentioned.
What kind of novels do you enjoy now? Do you read a lot of contemporary works, or do you prefer older literature?
There is a lot of older literature I would love to read, but modern literature is more accessible at my level. Some books I finished recently: 泣くな研修医 series, 雪の花 by 吉村 昭 (I'm an oncologist so I like reading about Japanese doctors). Also "slice of life novels" especially set in Japanese countryside or small islands, like アンマーとぼくら by 有川 ひろ. I'm hoping to use some of your daily newsletters as ideas for further reading!
You're absolutely right. I want to read novels in Japanese and when I told my teacher (lessons I no longer follow ) she said I wouldn't be able to after one year of study, that even after four years of study this would be very hard. And yes it is extremely hard, but if I wait until I know all the 2500 kanji, I think I never begin attempting to read a novel. Seth also has a point about textbooks, that beginners need this, like said previously I'm using Genki I and this feels comfortable, uses a slow pace and you aren't likely to give up because it is too hard. On the other hand I want to move on to intermediate level and nearly every time I say something in Japanese I'm told that this isn't the way Japanese people say this...but it taught in this way in the textbook. I think it is good to also use the online resources available and my glad we all, or many of us have access to those resources. I watch Japanese traditional songs on youtube like these onces:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn4shgGfooo
Hi Koppa, yes this was exactly my frustration as well. But you are, of course, right when you say that beginners need a lot of guidance. But once you reach an intermediate level, you cannot rely solely on textbooks, as you'll inevitably run into the issues you mentioned. I'm glad to see you've found alternative sources to help you in your progress!
Thank for your quick reply and for posting this great topic. I'm really glad I found your newsletter. I wish you all a successful and fun journey and believe we will reach our goal and find the delicate balance within the resources to do so. I also think that reading helps to gain a deeper understanding of the language.
I started Japanese about 3 years ago. I didn’t go to a formal school, but a friend gave me lessons following the book minna no nihongo. By the end of the year I passed the JLPT N5, but I realised that, as you have said, the Japanese I learned was really different from what I read on manga or heard in anime. So, as my goal was to read novels, from there on I continued self-studying. At first, I mainly studied from textbooks learning grammar points, practicing reading, and memorizing words and kanji with flashcards. After a year I successfully passed N3, but while I could read some manga, I couldn’t go past 2 sentences in a novel. Then I decided to pay less attention to the textbooks and start reading actual novels. It was arduous at first, but I managed to complete reading 4 slice-of-life light novels in 2020. I still have a long way to go, but I learned so many things by immersing myself in actual content. Now, because of uni I don’t have the time to properly sit and read novels, so reading your newsletter is really fun! Reading a few sentences everyday makes me feel like I’m not losing my skills, and it's also really interesting to see the different writing styles of the authors, so thank you!!
Coming back to the discussion, I think at the basic level is good to teach general rules without the exceptions, as you're just starting to grasp the language and it may discourage you otherwise. However, at an intermediate and advanced level that's unacceptable. I’ve never gone to a Japanese class, but I’ve studied English at a language school (my first language is Spanish btw) and it wasn’t until I started reading novels in English that I actually made some progress. From there on, the only thing I learned at the school were a few words that I probably will never use.
There is so much you can learn by just following a textbook, so in a classroom, the teacher has the responsibility of incorporating other resources. Also, if you first stumble upon something you don't understand, and then learn what it was about, you are more likely to remember it than if you just see it without really needing to know it. That’s why I prefer self-studying, as I can learn whatever I truly want to learn and at my own pace. So maybe motivating students to investigate and explore the language on their own may be the best move.
Hi Romi, thank you for your thoughtful comment. I think you did everything right in your learning trajectory. I agree that textbooks are necessary in the beginning. But I think it's so great that you made the step towards reading literature on your own so early on. I had a similar experience. In the beginning, it was terrible...I had to look up every word and even then I still didn't understand what was going on. But after three months I noticed I was making progress and I was reading faster. This made reading more fun and so I stuck with it. It seems you have gone through a similar process. I'm really glad that the newsletter is helping you maintain the skills that you've learned. Hopefully you'll find the time to sit down and read a whole book again. But until then, please enjoy this newsletter. You might even find a new author you like! Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help. Feel free to get in touch.
Yes, it was exactly as you said! At first, reading felt like a chore, having to look up words every two sentences, and even then I couldn't understand some. But then, I tried reading 10 pages without stopping before re-reading them looking up what I didn't understand, which made it way more fluid and enjoyable. While reading I learnt a lot of idioms and fun words, and now I can see that I have improved a lot.
Now, writing this made me want to read something hahha. I love mystery books, especially if they have a 名探偵, but I don’t know if they might be a bit hard to read. Do you have any recommendations?
You're very welcome! I'm very surprised and happy to see that so many people are gaining something from this platform, which I created for a handful of students to help them keep reading in Japanese, and to stop myself from losing my mind during lockdown. It's really one of the most fulfilling things to do, and I hope I can keep doing it for a long time.
It's funny to read that we had a similar experience in this regard. It will only get easier as you progress. You'll always have to look up some words or phrases, but you'll be able to read anything without a dictionary at some point. That's when it becomes really fun! Perhaps we can organize a reading club where we read in a small group of people. Gemz also commented that they would be interested in something like this.
I really love 推理小説! There are many great writers, but I especially enjoy works by Matsumoto Seisho and Edogawa Ranpo.
If you enjoy it, you should continue doing it! I also like doing some translations as I feel that if I can translate it, it means I understood the idea.
And a reading club seems like a fun idea! I’d love to join if it happens.
I also like Edogawa Ranpo’s works! I have only read a few in English though, but reading it in Japanese looks fun. I have also watched the anime “Ranpo Kitan: Game of Laplace” which is based on his works and is great. I’ll search for Matsumoto Seisho too then.
I was reading some of the old threads, and chanced upon these dialogues from more than a year ago. I am not sure how responses to the old messages would appear, but I would love to join a 推理小説 reading club. I can start from Mid July 2022 (in about 2 weeks). I am happy to host Zoom calls etc...
I've been studying for about a year now, though I still struggle with even understanding articles on NHK Easy beyond getting the gist. Like, I can read them out loud for the most part, but when it comes to grammatical basics, I can't really make them stick. I tried Bunpro for about half a year in conjunction with Genki, but while the SRS approach works for me for kanji acquisition, I can't say the same for grammar points. In my case, it's probably still about finding what helps me learn best, though I've definitely been in the situation where I tried going into Japanese-only media and then losing my patience 15 minutes in because I feel like I need to force myself to really internalize what's happening for later use.
Hi Alex, thanks for your comment. I completely get this feeling of losing your patience. It's so infuriating that after a lot of studying we sometimes still have trouble understanding what's going on. But believe me when I say that, even though it might not feel like it, you're making progress, even when you don't understand everything. Regular exposure really helps. Just stick with it and keep searching for what works for you. Let me know if you get stuck on anything in particular. I'm glad to help.
I can totally agree to what you have pointed out as the reasons why we perform so well at basic level in school and suddenly get lost in the real world when we have to use the language actually on spot. We keep imagining those particular situations all the time which we studied in book so we can participate. However that hardly happens and we end up being shut most of the time. Something as simple as what you should say to your teacher while giving a gift on teachers day... I had to search on google as it was never taught. Instantaneously when that event occured I was confused what to say and out of hesitation just said.. これ、ほんの気持ちです。But i wanted to say a lot more and natural sentences which must be used.This was just an example..
I am really struggling with my spoken language and see a ray of hope with your suggestions as to where I am lacking.. Also this may help us to carry on a conversation with a native.
Thank you for your reply. I have mostly followed the text books till now up to Intermediate levels. Studying so may grammar patters and stuff. I have started using apps like Hi nativev for clearing my doubts with the Natives, Linq for some reading though not too actively and listen to podcasts as that interests me a lot.
But since I try to understand each and every word they say, it takes a lot of time..But actually what I am realising I don't expose myself to a lot of real language as it makes me feel guilty that probably I am not good enough.. When I read your article it seems doesn't matter what comes in just expose yourself to the real language. Further, it's my wish I can some day read a whole Novel in Japanese... I have started many a times but then quit due to the time it consumes..
I really enjoyed the short literature passages that were sent by you through emails.. great explanations too..
You're welcome. It sounds like you're doing everything right. But I hope you are able to let go of the guilt you feel for not having made enough progress. It sounds like that is the only thing holding you back. I'm glad that you're finding the newsletter helpful. Perhaps there is a way in which we can read together in small groups on a regular basis. This is always a good way to make progress quickly.
Hi Gemz, thanks for sharing your experience. I recognize a lot of what you mention, as I experienced this a lot, especially when I just started out. I loved your example by the way. You said the right thing, but still there are all these other things you want to say, and in the moment you either can't remember them or simply haven't encountered them.
Which kind of tools do you use now to practice your spoken Japanese?
There is always hope! Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you get stuck or have questions. I'm glad to help where I can.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that gain access to a language one must immerse oneself in it. I personally think though, that textbooks are useful (and quite necessary) to kick start one's learning (especially for learners who don't have the advantage of being in the culture or environment of the language).
I do think textbooks become less effective the more advanced learners get. My Japanese language education experience is similar to Magnus'. I find that there is a lot of drilling and ROTE learning, which I am thankful that I went through as a beginner. Personally, I study my textbooks purely for the JLPT test but a majority of my 'study' is reading, writing, listening to the radio and speaking to native speakers - basically immersion.
That's why, I am always very grateful for your newsletters! They don't only help me in the language learning aspect, but they also expose me to a lot of Japanese authors that I wouldn't have otherwise known of.
Hi jlhj5! Thanks for sharing this. It seems a lot of people are exposed to these kinds of teaching methods. In the end I think balance is important. We need the drills, the repetition, the systematic grammar rules, and then we need to go out and test our knowledge in reality. This last step is often hard for people to take, as there are few platforms that show you how. I'm really glad to read that this newsletter is helping you in this respect.
I’m in my 3rd year of studying Japanese with an Australian university, online. I agree with a lot of what you said. However, the study materials we get at uni are only a fraction of what I use to study the language. I think intermediate and advanced students should be self-directed learners, ie. they should be seeking out materials that interest them alongside the uni work. I like going to my classes because it motivates me, I can hear about other people’s experiences, and I can learn fundamentals. But I wouldn’t expect any more from an undergraduate uni course. Students should take some responsibility for their own learning, through what interests them. Now I live in Japan, my partner is Japanese, I’m speaking and reading Japanese everyday and work and at home, and I’m improving! Formal education can only go so far.
Hi Renee, thank you for your well-balanced reply. I really like what you wrote about students having to take responsibility and seek out alternative ways of learning for themselves. I'm curious: what are some of the tools that you use to study? What kind of materials would you recommend if you weren't living in Japan? I'm sure other readers will benefit from your experience and knowledge!
My favourite tools are podcasts - when I was a beginner I subscribed to Japanesepod101 and listened to thousands of hours of dialogues and stories. Now I listen to other podcasts - Nigongo con Teppei, The Real Japanese Podcast, and Learn Japanese with Noriko. I’ve been using WaniKani for learning the kanji readings. I use Satori Reader for reading fiction every day, and read NHK News Easy most days. I also love watching Japanese TV dramas on Hulu (unfortunately no subtitles!). Apart from that, I have Japanese friends : )
Thanks for sharing these resources, these sound great! Btw I think Netflix now has Japanese subtitles for both Japanese and non-Japanese shows. Thanks again!
I totally agree with you observation that there is a gap between the language school Japanese and the Japanese you hear and see in real life. As for the reason, we can only guess. In my view there is a big focus in Japan on 方, and the value in doing certain activities almost ritually. This flows through the extensive process of paperwork, the tediousness of the first years in martial arts, the fixed ways in doing tea rituals and the way language is taught. My teachers always focus on us writing kanji over and over again, even though in my opinion this is largely wasted time compared to using mnemonic systems for remembering. Most young language stydents will probably not go out and write kanji by hand, but rather read and then write digitally.
I have now studied one year at a language school. When as students we have asked our teachers about learning more casual Japanese, they say we don't have enough time. If we write example sentences of casual Japanese, they often correct this to more formal Japanese.
I do appreciate the way my school has focused on grammar, and making us good at conjugating. But when it comes to speaking, I wish they taught more causal Japanese. I also really wish they taught us kanji in a different way. I have trouble reading many of the short texts you send in your newsletter even though I have often studied the symbols in school.
I am also surprised that my school promotes different digital tools, but none of these include a simple SRS system. Just providing students with simple Anki decks would be very helpful for beginners.
I don't think they hinder students by design, but rather the old fashioned ways are a glimpse into the general Japanese view of education.
I recognize what you say. In bureaucratic contexts, there is often this exaggerated reliance on 形式. It seems that in most cases, we have to rely on our own resourcefulness to engage with alternative forms of Japanese. Hopefully we can support each other here in achieving that goal.
Japanese textbooks are certainly not “designed to limit your progress.” Textbooks are simply one tool for learning languages. They have their inadequacies, sure. But as you later stated, you have to be actively reading, speaking, listening, and consuming cultural media. Textbooks are sort of the jump start you need so you’re not completely lost.
Take your self introduction example. Look at an English language textbook. “Hello, my name is X. It is very nice to meet you.” Of course we know that “Hi, I’m X, nice to meet you” is much more natural. But so is “Hey there, X, pleasure.” A beginner needs a foothold to get started. Textbooks teach something that, while a little unnatural, is technically correct. Like you point out it’s a good pattern for AはBだ. Beginners need some easy early wins to feel excited.
And the more advanced you get, the harder it is to learn from a textbook because you have to create an understanding for yourself. Take a simple word like ところ. It has a surface level “place” meaning, but also I deeper abstract sense of “level” like in the grammar pattern どころか. I really only understood it after seeing it in action a bunch of times and forming my own complex understanding of its multifaceted meaning. I don’t think a textbook can do that for you.
Like you, I do translations to continue to improve my Japanese. Isn’t it so incredibly helpful? I don’t think a textbook or a class could or should replace the work we do on our own to improve.
To summarize, I don’t think Japanese education systems are the issue. I just think getting your brain to understand a new way of thinking and expressing is a monumental task that takes lots of approaches. And seeing your daily emails is a great reminder that there is a community out there on the same journey! Thank you.
Hi Seth, thank you so much for your thoughtful contribution.
In many ways, I completely agree with you! My statement was perhaps overly harsh, and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest we could or should ever do away with these types of textbooks. I simply feel that when you reach a certain level, it's important to dive into the deep end of the pool to see if you can swim, with the awareness that there is a shallow end that you can swim toward if you feel you are about to drown. But often, it feels as if these textbooks are keeping us at the shallow end of the pool: we get a taste of what it's like to be in the water, but we can only imagine what it would be like to swim on our own.
My essay is therefore a call for more alternative materials that encourage us to take the plunge. I feel that these kinds of tools are scarce to say the least, which is also reflected in the expression of frustration I sometimes detect in messages I receive from intermediate and advanced learners.
Thanks again! I always enjoy reading your carefully worded replies.
People can learn lots of things, but the only way to truly become fluent is to speak the language. I feel that sentiment is lost on language education in general. It's more about the written words, rather than speaking
Hi Ari, thanks for your comment. I completely understand this. When I look at the curriculum at my university, I see that the emphasis is definitely on grammar and reading, and much less on speaking. I always feel that the two work together. You need an understanding of the writing system in order to make sense of the language, but you need spoken Japanese to attain fluency that will ultimately also help your reading comprehension. Thanks for sharing this!
Thank you for responding and writing it. This line really resonated with me:
"Yes, verbs are difficult. But instead of trying to mask this difficulty by artificially reconstructing it for easy consumption, surely we want our studying tools to say: 'yes it’s hard, but here’s how you can overcome that difficulty and do it anyway'."
I am currently in the process of preparing JLPT N1, and I mostly agree with your critique of presenting language as a neatly packaged product. Most of all, I find the focus on business to be a good antidote for any enthusiasm I had.
Having done some studies on foreign language teaching, I understand that certain domains are necessary, and that I cannot realistically hope for a language curriculum to avoid highly formal language use and similar things and still be taken seriously. As many native speakers have to struggle with politeness, so do I. I am just pissed that some of the grammar patterns in my book aren't understood by my Japanese friends, either.
Having said that, I agree with what has already been said, and that any learner should be proactive in looking for resources, but I find that proposing exercises could go a long way of opening other media as possibilities. For example, when I helped a friend of mine studying, I made him read a short story by Murakami Haruki, without telling him who the author was. It made his day to learn that he could read his all time favourite author, albeit with some effort.
In short, I believe that the neat package is a necessary compromise, but it definitely should be paired with some space for exploring.
Hi Andrea, thanks for you comment. It seems that you, as do many others, share the frustration of feeling a disconnect between the content of textsbooks and the practical application of language. But it sounds like you've found a good balance. I especially like reading about the example of your friend. Of course, these things take some effort, but as you say, the rewards are 100x more satisfying.
Thanks again, and good luck with your JLPT prep! Let me know if I can help in any way.
I wholeheartedly agree with Bunsuke! And a great topic. In addition, personally I think an effective Japanese teaching system at the Intermediate and Above level should be one which can teach someone who DOES NOT already live in Japan, to apply what they learn at a TRUE intermediate and above level. I have many text books and many types of JLPT test prep books, and have passed N2. When it comes to usage in a real situation, however, I think I am really more at N3. I would love to have a teacher who help me do systematic drills at an advanced level, applicable in real and complex situation.
Hi Emma, it's always great to hear from you! I think you hit the nail on the head. The JLPT is by far the most conditioned, self-contained test out there. I hear so often that no one really ever encounters what they've learned on the test in real life. In my view, the only way to really progress to an advanced level is to read (novels, newspapers, etc.) and speak (business Japanese, etc.). This is also why I created this platform: I wanted to take away the (sometimes imaginary) hurdles when it comes to reading actual Japanese literature.
What kind of lessons/drills do you envision? Do you have any specific goals in mind for how you want to use your language skills?
Thanks again for your contribution. Let me know if there is anything I can do to assist you in your studies.
Hi Bunsuke, I would like to drill on using polite and proper expressions for various daily life scenarios and business like scenarios. :) I would like to stay in Japan for long term, and have it as one of my residences eventually. Thank you!
That sounds like a great goal Emma. Perhaps I can help create those types of exercises.
So many facets to this subject it is hard to know where to start. I suppose I need to put individual learning styles aside. There’s also innate ability. I have been learning the guitar for 50 years and am still terrible, yet nobody gives me a hard time about it. But in Japanese language - whoa - the judgements are hard and cutting. But textbooks and the Japanese system … well, I think all language textbooks for any language are suspect - but they are cost effective. Many good teachers abandon the text - but, it's hard work, and maintaining continuity over longer courses can be a problem.
My Japanese classroom experiences have been a real tragedy. Here you will find even worse mixed level situations as the market is smaller. Need I go on about Japanese teaching methodology? What methodology? My God, student speaking time was a sip of water in a dessert of monotonous explanation.
I took a couple of free courses thru the ward office and on top of the unskilled teaching, we had to suffer a bizarre discrimination and weird nationalism where on our field trip we visited a company and observed workers cleaning bathrooms. We even got to pitch in. Most of us had college degrees. We were in tears laughing at our situation.
Work related kanji were given to memorize without any foundation. Creativity was frowned upon. Just memorize how to write “I am deeply sorry for being late” because you will need it.
But, some people get it. We need to find the other path that won’t break the bank. I’m still looking. My kanji studies are coming a long well because it suits me. I write out your passages every morning. I really doubt that path leads through a Japanese language class.
And if you know of one, please, tell me.
Hi Paul, thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like you got a terrible deal with those courses offered by the ward office…
But I suppose it really depends on the teachers. I've had bad experiences (though never as extreme as your story) but I've also had excellent teachers in Japan. Though I haven't found any perfect method yet, I hope I can contribute to creating more intuitive materials that actually stimulate creativity and independence in learners. Is there any particular element that you're struggling with?
I agree Bunsuke. This is actually a large reason why I want to become a Japanese teacher myself and create my own way of tackling the pedagogy required to properly understand the language. I have never learned any Japanese in a classroom, and instead taught myself from nothing. Throughout all of the material that I've encountered, every single resource (with the minor exception of TextFugu) has the pitfall of starting learners in the middle of the language (masu form, etc, instead of dictionary form), without the proper formulas for verb conjugation, without explaining nor distinguishing particles properly, without explaining basic sentence structure theory (SOV and word+particle pairs), and without cultural context for proper usage (like you said, 私はサイです instead of just サイです). I had to come to these revelations on my own through interacting with the language on my own for so many years, and I've always said to myself, "If only I knew X, Y, and Z when I started, I would light-years ahead of where I am today". It's not today, but some time in the future I'll finish my "Logical Japanese" teaching material, and I hope it will help other learners get the proper introduction to the language that they deserve.
Hi Cysote, thanks for joining the discussion. It's incredible that you've been able to get this far just by teaching yourself. It must have been very hard to keep going, but it seems you've somehow been able to stay motivated. Incredible! I'd be interested to hear about your plans for educational materials. I'm also thinking about creating a different type of textbook. One that's more intuitive. Hope I'll be able to hear more about your experiences and the hurdles you've had to overcome. Thanks again!
I agree with you mostly. As others have said until you reach about the JLPT N3 level it's difficult to engage with native materials because you lack a critical mass of basic vocabulary and simple grammar structures. Beyond that though, I think I was able to progress faster by just struggling through novels, podcasts, movies and conversations with Japanese people (I was very fortunate to have friends and family that would humor me by having conversations in Japanese even when English would be easier for all involved.) I ditched textbooks altogether in favor of trying to learn from novels, and learning from context is much easier than trying to memorize isolated esoteric grammar rules.
You become good at something by just doing the activity. It sounds obvious but if you want to be a good distance runner, or guitar player or whatever, you have to dive in and do the activity, not read about it. Of course the same is true for language learning. We all have different reasons for learning Japanese, but I'm guessing no one, or almost no one's goal, is to get good at grammar exercises in books!
At the same time it never feels like I'm making progress until I reopen a novel I struggled through a year ago, and realize now I can understand the dialogue in a way I didn't the first time I floundered through it!
Hi Jeff, thanks for sharing this. This makes a lot of sense. I had this exact experience. During the summer of my first year of studying Japanese I attempted to read my first novel in Japanese. I wasn't able to finish it and I didn't feel like I'd made any progress. But when I returned to materials I had previous found challenging, many of these problems had resolved themselves, simply because of the exposure to language and the experience of struggling through it, as you also mentioned.
What kind of novels do you enjoy now? Do you read a lot of contemporary works, or do you prefer older literature?
There is a lot of older literature I would love to read, but modern literature is more accessible at my level. Some books I finished recently: 泣くな研修医 series, 雪の花 by 吉村 昭 (I'm an oncologist so I like reading about Japanese doctors). Also "slice of life novels" especially set in Japanese countryside or small islands, like アンマーとぼくら by 有川 ひろ. I'm hoping to use some of your daily newsletters as ideas for further reading!
This is all great stuff! Perhaps I can look for some fictional doctors as well…
You're absolutely right. I want to read novels in Japanese and when I told my teacher (lessons I no longer follow ) she said I wouldn't be able to after one year of study, that even after four years of study this would be very hard. And yes it is extremely hard, but if I wait until I know all the 2500 kanji, I think I never begin attempting to read a novel. Seth also has a point about textbooks, that beginners need this, like said previously I'm using Genki I and this feels comfortable, uses a slow pace and you aren't likely to give up because it is too hard. On the other hand I want to move on to intermediate level and nearly every time I say something in Japanese I'm told that this isn't the way Japanese people say this...but it taught in this way in the textbook. I think it is good to also use the online resources available and my glad we all, or many of us have access to those resources. I watch Japanese traditional songs on youtube like these onces:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn4shgGfooo
Hi Koppa, yes this was exactly my frustration as well. But you are, of course, right when you say that beginners need a lot of guidance. But once you reach an intermediate level, you cannot rely solely on textbooks, as you'll inevitably run into the issues you mentioned. I'm glad to see you've found alternative sources to help you in your progress!
Thank for your quick reply and for posting this great topic. I'm really glad I found your newsletter. I wish you all a successful and fun journey and believe we will reach our goal and find the delicate balance within the resources to do so. I also think that reading helps to gain a deeper understanding of the language.
Thank you for joining the community!
I started Japanese about 3 years ago. I didn’t go to a formal school, but a friend gave me lessons following the book minna no nihongo. By the end of the year I passed the JLPT N5, but I realised that, as you have said, the Japanese I learned was really different from what I read on manga or heard in anime. So, as my goal was to read novels, from there on I continued self-studying. At first, I mainly studied from textbooks learning grammar points, practicing reading, and memorizing words and kanji with flashcards. After a year I successfully passed N3, but while I could read some manga, I couldn’t go past 2 sentences in a novel. Then I decided to pay less attention to the textbooks and start reading actual novels. It was arduous at first, but I managed to complete reading 4 slice-of-life light novels in 2020. I still have a long way to go, but I learned so many things by immersing myself in actual content. Now, because of uni I don’t have the time to properly sit and read novels, so reading your newsletter is really fun! Reading a few sentences everyday makes me feel like I’m not losing my skills, and it's also really interesting to see the different writing styles of the authors, so thank you!!
Coming back to the discussion, I think at the basic level is good to teach general rules without the exceptions, as you're just starting to grasp the language and it may discourage you otherwise. However, at an intermediate and advanced level that's unacceptable. I’ve never gone to a Japanese class, but I’ve studied English at a language school (my first language is Spanish btw) and it wasn’t until I started reading novels in English that I actually made some progress. From there on, the only thing I learned at the school were a few words that I probably will never use.
There is so much you can learn by just following a textbook, so in a classroom, the teacher has the responsibility of incorporating other resources. Also, if you first stumble upon something you don't understand, and then learn what it was about, you are more likely to remember it than if you just see it without really needing to know it. That’s why I prefer self-studying, as I can learn whatever I truly want to learn and at my own pace. So maybe motivating students to investigate and explore the language on their own may be the best move.
Hi Romi, thank you for your thoughtful comment. I think you did everything right in your learning trajectory. I agree that textbooks are necessary in the beginning. But I think it's so great that you made the step towards reading literature on your own so early on. I had a similar experience. In the beginning, it was terrible...I had to look up every word and even then I still didn't understand what was going on. But after three months I noticed I was making progress and I was reading faster. This made reading more fun and so I stuck with it. It seems you have gone through a similar process. I'm really glad that the newsletter is helping you maintain the skills that you've learned. Hopefully you'll find the time to sit down and read a whole book again. But until then, please enjoy this newsletter. You might even find a new author you like! Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help. Feel free to get in touch.
Yes, it was exactly as you said! At first, reading felt like a chore, having to look up words every two sentences, and even then I couldn't understand some. But then, I tried reading 10 pages without stopping before re-reading them looking up what I didn't understand, which made it way more fluid and enjoyable. While reading I learnt a lot of idioms and fun words, and now I can see that I have improved a lot.
Now, writing this made me want to read something hahha. I love mystery books, especially if they have a 名探偵, but I don’t know if they might be a bit hard to read. Do you have any recommendations?
Thank you for everything you are doing!
You're very welcome! I'm very surprised and happy to see that so many people are gaining something from this platform, which I created for a handful of students to help them keep reading in Japanese, and to stop myself from losing my mind during lockdown. It's really one of the most fulfilling things to do, and I hope I can keep doing it for a long time.
It's funny to read that we had a similar experience in this regard. It will only get easier as you progress. You'll always have to look up some words or phrases, but you'll be able to read anything without a dictionary at some point. That's when it becomes really fun! Perhaps we can organize a reading club where we read in a small group of people. Gemz also commented that they would be interested in something like this.
I really love 推理小説! There are many great writers, but I especially enjoy works by Matsumoto Seisho and Edogawa Ranpo.
If you enjoy it, you should continue doing it! I also like doing some translations as I feel that if I can translate it, it means I understood the idea.
And a reading club seems like a fun idea! I’d love to join if it happens.
I also like Edogawa Ranpo’s works! I have only read a few in English though, but reading it in Japanese looks fun. I have also watched the anime “Ranpo Kitan: Game of Laplace” which is based on his works and is great. I’ll search for Matsumoto Seisho too then.
Sorry I made a typo. Matsumoto Seicho is his name, 松本清張 are the kanji. I'll keep you up to date on reading club!
okk thanks!
I was reading some of the old threads, and chanced upon these dialogues from more than a year ago. I am not sure how responses to the old messages would appear, but I would love to join a 推理小説 reading club. I can start from Mid July 2022 (in about 2 weeks). I am happy to host Zoom calls etc...
I've been studying for about a year now, though I still struggle with even understanding articles on NHK Easy beyond getting the gist. Like, I can read them out loud for the most part, but when it comes to grammatical basics, I can't really make them stick. I tried Bunpro for about half a year in conjunction with Genki, but while the SRS approach works for me for kanji acquisition, I can't say the same for grammar points. In my case, it's probably still about finding what helps me learn best, though I've definitely been in the situation where I tried going into Japanese-only media and then losing my patience 15 minutes in because I feel like I need to force myself to really internalize what's happening for later use.
Hi Alex, thanks for your comment. I completely get this feeling of losing your patience. It's so infuriating that after a lot of studying we sometimes still have trouble understanding what's going on. But believe me when I say that, even though it might not feel like it, you're making progress, even when you don't understand everything. Regular exposure really helps. Just stick with it and keep searching for what works for you. Let me know if you get stuck on anything in particular. I'm glad to help.
I can totally agree to what you have pointed out as the reasons why we perform so well at basic level in school and suddenly get lost in the real world when we have to use the language actually on spot. We keep imagining those particular situations all the time which we studied in book so we can participate. However that hardly happens and we end up being shut most of the time. Something as simple as what you should say to your teacher while giving a gift on teachers day... I had to search on google as it was never taught. Instantaneously when that event occured I was confused what to say and out of hesitation just said.. これ、ほんの気持ちです。But i wanted to say a lot more and natural sentences which must be used.This was just an example..
I am really struggling with my spoken language and see a ray of hope with your suggestions as to where I am lacking.. Also this may help us to carry on a conversation with a native.
Great to have this guidance from you！
Thank you for your reply. I have mostly followed the text books till now up to Intermediate levels. Studying so may grammar patters and stuff. I have started using apps like Hi nativev for clearing my doubts with the Natives, Linq for some reading though not too actively and listen to podcasts as that interests me a lot.
But since I try to understand each and every word they say, it takes a lot of time..But actually what I am realising I don't expose myself to a lot of real language as it makes me feel guilty that probably I am not good enough.. When I read your article it seems doesn't matter what comes in just expose yourself to the real language. Further, it's my wish I can some day read a whole Novel in Japanese... I have started many a times but then quit due to the time it consumes..
I really enjoyed the short literature passages that were sent by you through emails.. great explanations too..
You're welcome. It sounds like you're doing everything right. But I hope you are able to let go of the guilt you feel for not having made enough progress. It sounds like that is the only thing holding you back. I'm glad that you're finding the newsletter helpful. Perhaps there is a way in which we can read together in small groups on a regular basis. This is always a good way to make progress quickly.
Indeed a great idea.. are there any such groups already?
Not that I know of, but we can always create one...
Hi Gemz, thanks for sharing your experience. I recognize a lot of what you mention, as I experienced this a lot, especially when I just started out. I loved your example by the way. You said the right thing, but still there are all these other things you want to say, and in the moment you either can't remember them or simply haven't encountered them.
Which kind of tools do you use now to practice your spoken Japanese?
There is always hope! Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you get stuck or have questions. I'm glad to help where I can.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that gain access to a language one must immerse oneself in it. I personally think though, that textbooks are useful (and quite necessary) to kick start one's learning (especially for learners who don't have the advantage of being in the culture or environment of the language).
I do think textbooks become less effective the more advanced learners get. My Japanese language education experience is similar to Magnus'. I find that there is a lot of drilling and ROTE learning, which I am thankful that I went through as a beginner. Personally, I study my textbooks purely for the JLPT test but a majority of my 'study' is reading, writing, listening to the radio and speaking to native speakers - basically immersion.
That's why, I am always very grateful for your newsletters! They don't only help me in the language learning aspect, but they also expose me to a lot of Japanese authors that I wouldn't have otherwise known of.
Hi jlhj5! Thanks for sharing this. It seems a lot of people are exposed to these kinds of teaching methods. In the end I think balance is important. We need the drills, the repetition, the systematic grammar rules, and then we need to go out and test our knowledge in reality. This last step is often hard for people to take, as there are few platforms that show you how. I'm really glad to read that this newsletter is helping you in this respect.
Thanks again for your comment!
I’m in my 3rd year of studying Japanese with an Australian university, online. I agree with a lot of what you said. However, the study materials we get at uni are only a fraction of what I use to study the language. I think intermediate and advanced students should be self-directed learners, ie. they should be seeking out materials that interest them alongside the uni work. I like going to my classes because it motivates me, I can hear about other people’s experiences, and I can learn fundamentals. But I wouldn’t expect any more from an undergraduate uni course. Students should take some responsibility for their own learning, through what interests them. Now I live in Japan, my partner is Japanese, I’m speaking and reading Japanese everyday and work and at home, and I’m improving! Formal education can only go so far.
Hi Renee, thank you for your well-balanced reply. I really like what you wrote about students having to take responsibility and seek out alternative ways of learning for themselves. I'm curious: what are some of the tools that you use to study? What kind of materials would you recommend if you weren't living in Japan? I'm sure other readers will benefit from your experience and knowledge!
Have a great Sunday :)
My favourite tools are podcasts - when I was a beginner I subscribed to Japanesepod101 and listened to thousands of hours of dialogues and stories. Now I listen to other podcasts - Nigongo con Teppei, The Real Japanese Podcast, and Learn Japanese with Noriko. I’ve been using WaniKani for learning the kanji readings. I use Satori Reader for reading fiction every day, and read NHK News Easy most days. I also love watching Japanese TV dramas on Hulu (unfortunately no subtitles!). Apart from that, I have Japanese friends : )
Thanks for sharing these resources, these sound great! Btw I think Netflix now has Japanese subtitles for both Japanese and non-Japanese shows. Thanks again!
Love your resource too, keep up the good work :)
Thank you, that means a lot to me!
Thank you for your newsletter!
I totally agree with you observation that there is a gap between the language school Japanese and the Japanese you hear and see in real life. As for the reason, we can only guess. In my view there is a big focus in Japan on 方, and the value in doing certain activities almost ritually. This flows through the extensive process of paperwork, the tediousness of the first years in martial arts, the fixed ways in doing tea rituals and the way language is taught. My teachers always focus on us writing kanji over and over again, even though in my opinion this is largely wasted time compared to using mnemonic systems for remembering. Most young language stydents will probably not go out and write kanji by hand, but rather read and then write digitally.
I have now studied one year at a language school. When as students we have asked our teachers about learning more casual Japanese, they say we don't have enough time. If we write example sentences of casual Japanese, they often correct this to more formal Japanese.
I do appreciate the way my school has focused on grammar, and making us good at conjugating. But when it comes to speaking, I wish they taught more causal Japanese. I also really wish they taught us kanji in a different way. I have trouble reading many of the short texts you send in your newsletter even though I have often studied the symbols in school.
I am also surprised that my school promotes different digital tools, but none of these include a simple SRS system. Just providing students with simple Anki decks would be very helpful for beginners.
I don't think they hinder students by design, but rather the old fashioned ways are a glimpse into the general Japanese view of education.
I'm interested in hearing other's views on this.
Thanks for this contribution, Magnus!
I recognize what you say. In bureaucratic contexts, there is often this exaggerated reliance on 形式. It seems that in most cases, we have to rely on our own resourcefulness to engage with alternative forms of Japanese. Hopefully we can support each other here in achieving that goal.