Welcome to day #3 of the immersion reading project.
After the first two days, your head is probably spinning with all the new words, grammar patterns, and the sheer volume of Japanese text your brain is trying to process. This is all normal! In fact, it means that you are making progress. Keep going, even if it means taking it a bit slower. You can do this!
Please post your responses, questions, etc. to pp. 388-391 of Murakami’s short story「沈黙」below.
Brief update today! Finally got a chance to sit down with the text just now for about an hour, and read the first half of p382. It turns out I missed the last line of p381 and connected the penultimate line to the first line of p382, which... affected the meaning. Just slightly (lol).
It was a pretty comfortable rhythm and pace of scanning the sentence, looking up unknown kanji, and trying to infer the meaning from context (rather than looking up all the grammar structures I don't know, which was distracting), so I think I'm happy with this pace - even though I'll probably have to skip reading fully some of the other comments here to avoid spoilers haha.
In particular, I keep forgetting the meaning of として even though it's come up many times (recently as 何ひとつとして --> not even a single one). Does anyone know the etymology of として / whether it has a kanji version (however rare?)
Since I didn't look any grammar up, I've got some questions to write up tomorrow. But I wonder whether I should ask now about Osawa's speech patterns... maybe I'll ask later once I've compiled some more examples. Good luck everyone with your reading!
Hi Nana, it's really good that you've already found a reading rhythm after just three days!
として is tricky as its meaning depends on the context. In the example you mention, it replaces も, but connotes an even stronger negation.
As it is made up of the particle と and the -て form of the verb する, I suppose technically you could use the kanji 為る, but for one that kanji actually implies an action, which として does not perse (maybe only in AをBとする), and second, I've never once in my life seen kanji used for として. In the end it might be best to think of it as a set phrase in most cases.
こんにちは！Firstly, is there a way to write “line 1” in Japanese?「line」をたくさん書くはちょっとうんざりとしたです... (is that the right form of 書く there…)
Ohh, good to know about として! It came up again in one of the questions below T.T
This is only about half of them, but going right in to the grammar questions and (notes):
Page 381:
1. (line 9 - よくわからなかった - I didn’t know it well (よく). よかった and よく are both inflections of 良い.)
2. line 9 - 訊ねてみた - is this just the te-ita-form for 訊ねる or does it carry a different meaning (confused about the みた)
3. line 10 - 行こう としている ところ だった - how do I split this? What form is the 行こう in? Mainly confused by としている - if it’s として / いる or all one thing. Looking at the full sentence: 大沢さんは僕と一緒にこれから新潟に行こうとしているところだった。(If として here means "as", is it 大沢さんは(僕と一緒にこれから新潟に行こう)として いる ところ だった。”In the role of going together with me from here to Niigata to be, Osawa-san was. (way too literal)” Then I’m not sure what ところだった is doing, maybe just making the whole sentence past tense, saying it “was that kind of thing”?
4. (line 11 - recording some examples to see whether I can work out the difference between when to use 始める and 初める: p1 line 12: 中学校の始め, p1 line 16: ボクシングを始めるとき, p2 line 11: 十二月の初め, p2 line 16: ボクシングを始めて) - maybe 始 has more purpose behind it? Whereas 初 is something that would happen anyway? Small sample size so far - I could probably look this up but it seems fun to record it.
5. (line 11 - 降っているらしく = seeming (らしく) to be falling - e.g. he heard it on the news)
6. line 11 - 新潟は朝からひどい雪が降っているらしく、飛行機の出発は予定よりずっと遅れそうだった - is it something like “(Because) it seemed from morning heavy snow was falling in Niigata, other than continuously delaying the flight (there was nothing else that could be done)” - Confused about what exactly より and そう are doing...
7. line 12 - curious about etymology of the ご in ごったがえしていた（ごった返す）
8. line 13 - keep forgetting ついて (regarding) - 便の遅延についてのお知らせを流しつづけ.“News regarding the delay of the flight broadcast [over the loudspeakers]”
Is ついて mostly used as について? Also what’s the ending 流しつづけ - is it a (connective) te-form? (another example - line 14 拭いつづけていた)
I saw 流しつづけ can mean broadcast but it also means to spill etc (for me it reminds me of 流れる which I’ve seen a lot in song lyrics haha) - I wonder if you consider it a poetic word to use in this case? Does it conjure imagery for you of news spilling over the loudspeakers or is it just normal? Are there more common and dedicated words for “broadcast”?
9. line 14 - I’ll refer to the comment on day 1 that addressed this later and that may answer this question. In ききすぎていて (assuming 効く - to work well), what’s the すぎ for? Is it “too much” like it was working way too well?
10. (line 15 - 「基本的には一度もありません」 I have no idea why I marked this now because I think I understand the grammar (possibly I was confused because that’s the first thing he said in ages?). Um. From the context of the next page I think Osawa’s talking about himself?
Because this is the first story I’ve read I can’t tell whether it’s really been ages since anyone talked or whether it’s because I’m slow at reading Japanese… like if this was a passage in English, would I notice the silence and the lack of speech? Or would I just take in all the descriptions at once, as if it’s happening all at once? Learning how to read all over again +1
The text says Osawa said the above after a moment of silence (しばらく沈黙していたあとで). Is this one of those significant silences? At my reading pace, it has certainly been a while since I heard from him. Also his ensuing monologue sounds pretty long to me but I have nothing to compare it with so xD)
Further questions will follow once I finish writing them up :)
Nana! This is really great, you're really getting deep into this story. I love it!
Ok, here we go:
1. -
2. -てみる gives the nuance of giving something a shot/a try. You're doing something of which you're unsure of the outcome.
3. 行こう is the volitional form. This form + とする means 'to be about to...'. The ところ only emphasizes the fact that that thing is about to happen/be performed.
4. 始める is the verb 'to begin something', whereas 初めて is 'first' or 'for the first time'. You often see the latter in compound combinations: 初対面 (first time meeting someone).
5. -
6. 予定よりずっと is 'far more than was the plan/schedule'. The そう in 遅れそう indicates that it 'seems' or 'looks like'. So you get something like 'it looked like the plane was going to depart far later than was initially planned'.
7. I think the ごった comes from the onomatopoeia ゴタゴタ which means 'messy' or 'disorderly'.
8. Similar to として, I think it's best to think of について as one set to mean concerning. If you absolutely want to use kanji you could use に就いて, but you only see this in prewar texts for the most part.
I don't think 流す is poetic. You can simply say 音楽を流す to mean that you're playing music (over the speakers). 流し続け is the ren'yokei form of 流し続ける, and, yes, as you already mentioned, this form may also function as a connective.
9. Correct! The すぎる after the ren'yokei form indicated excess. The kanji is 過ぎる.
10. -
I think the 沈黙 you spotted is not perse significant. I think this is one of the more superficial ones. You'll see why silence is significant in this story toward the end.
I've skipped the ones that seemed more like notes than questions ;) hope this helps :D
11. (line 16 - それはボクシングを始めるときにいや/っていう/くらい (to the extent that)/叩き/こまれるんです - saw a comment on day 1 that addressed this)
12. (line 17 - グラブをつけずに - where’d the ず come from? OH A ZU-FORM? “Without doing” so… “without wearing gloves”)
13. line 17 - 殴っちゃいけないって (must not hit)。line 18 - なっちゃうんです (it accidentally became?). I saw 「ては」 →「ちゃ」(casual). I get that the first example is ちゃ＋いけない → must not do. The second example, is it ちゃう + です? I saw that ちゃう is a conversational form of してしまう. (There’s another question about the んです below) … looking this up is a bit slow so I’d really appreciate it if someone could explain…
14. line 19 - これはただじゃすみません - (as an aside, I feel like I’ve misunderstood ただ; can it be used to say something like これはただ - “that’s it”?) In this phrase, I’m especially confused by what is meant with the じゃ and すみません
Page 382:
15. line 3 - (すぐの頃 - “just around the time”) Are ころ（頃） and ところ（所） related?
16. line 3 - でも言い訳するわけじゃありません. - “But this is no excuse/ but this doesn’t mean that it is an excuse/ but this doesn’t excuse it” I assume わけじゃありません is a form of 訳ではない - does the repetition of 訳 intensify the meaning?
17. (line 5 - Just noting 作る（つくる）”to make” and 付ける（つける）”to attach/wear”. There’s so many meanings for each of these so I’ll use the ones here as anchors...)
18. line 6 - それに殴ろうと思って殴ったわけでもないんです。 → feel like I’m missing something here: “Besides, it’s not like thinking of hitting always means hitting.” (殴ろうと思って is ikoukei + と思います) Maybe it’s context. Did he say this because he just listed a bunch of other activities he did at the gym? Also, is the difference between わけではない and わけでもない similar to the difference between は and も on their own, or is there additional nuance?
19. line 7 - wait is ものすごく like 物静か???! Ohh, it is, 物凄い, awesome! There really was another 物 adjective hehe. Is the difference between 凄い and 物凄い similar to what Bunsukeさん said before about 物静か? (After realising the answer to my next question, it would make sense to be describing someone’s character)
20. (line 7 - ものすごく腹を立てていて - I thought ものすごく would describe how he hit someone, so I don’t quite understand why - wait no I misread 腹 as stomach…. I thought he hit someone in the stomach oops… I thought it was early to be talking about that!! ok so taking 腹 to mean intentions… that makes a lot more sense :3)
21. line 7 - ものを考えるより先に手が出ちゃったんです。How does the より先に work? I get the overall meaning to be that his hand left before he thought about it.
22. line 7 - 止めようもなかったんです - “it was that (...んです) even if (も) I wanted to stop (止めよう volitional) I couldn’t/didn’t (...なかった)”? Is 止めようもなかった all one form of 止める or is なかった a separate verb?
23. line 9 - ぶるぶると震えていました。hehe repetition - it’d make sense if the onomatopoeia derived from 震える - couldn’t find any confirmation on this though - what should I search for if wanting to know more about this kind of etymology?
24. About speech patterns/ things different in direct speech:
Again, I have nothing to compare this to yet, but...
んです (380: お聞きになるんですか, 381: なっちゃうんです, 382: 出ちゃったんです) - I read that this contraction carries an explanatory feel? Which would make sense because there is a lot of explaining.
Wait does the narrator ever speak or is it all reported speech? I might be misremembering (my eyes are starting to glaze over so if I investigate this it’ll be next time) but I’m pretty sure I’ve only seen (so far, it hasn’t been long) Osawa’s words in 「direct speech marks」. In which case it would be cool because to the readers who don’t hear his exact words, the narrator is silent… and the only directly spoken words are Osawa’s explanations… possibly in the next section I read this will be utterly destroyed, but it’s fun to speculate!
No pressure to attempt all of these questions, I know there’s a lot :D Thank you so much Bunsukeさん for what you’ve answered so far!
13. Correct, ちゃう is a contracted form of てしまう. The ん is a short version of の in its explanatory function.
14. じゃ is the contracted form of では, and すみません = 済みません. The ただ here - which usually means 'free of cost' - has to be understood a bit broader here. The best way to explain it here might be 'it won't end without there being some kind of price to pay'.
15. You mean because they both have ころ in them? I don't believe they are, but I might ask a linguist friend of mine if there is some etymological connection here.
16. I don't think this should be understood as a repetition. 言い訳 is one word, and わけではない is a phrase. Here, the entire segment you quoted means something like: 'it's not that I'm making excuses, but...'
17. -
18. This is almost like a fixed pattern: ～しようと思ってしたわけじゃない. It means 'it's not like I wanted to do it' (very literally: 'it's not like I did it because I thought: let's do it!') So here it means 'it's not like I wanted to hit him (but that's what ended up happening)'
19. I think in general the もの gives a bit of extra emphasis, especially in the case of ものすごく.
20. No, it doesn't mean intentions here. 腹を立てる means 'to get angry'/'make yourself angry'. So it's saying that he felt very very angry.
21. より先に simply means 'before'. 'My hand moved before I realized it/before I thought (it through)'
22. 止めよう can best be understood here as 'way of stopping' (止め様). So here 'there wasn't even a way of stopping it' → 'there was no way of stopping it'.
23. Great question! I have no idea whether there is an etymological connection there, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was! I'll ask the nearest linguist again ;)
24. Yes! It is explanatory! Great job spotting this!
Hope these help! Really curious to here what you think of the rest of the story!!!
14. Ooh okay, that makes sense! The reason why I'm always chasing after kanji versions of things is probably because I find it easier to grasp the meaning... even if there turns out to be multiple ways to write it once you dig deeper xD
15. Haha you can really tell my understanding is superficial at times, it really was because they both have ころ in them xD My criteria for making a connection is super low haha, but my vocab is only growing so I wonder how this will develop :)
20. Aaah I see! Mostly I avoided putting too much into jisho.org at once but I think that backfired here haha, maybe it's worth putting longer phrases in to check once I've attempted them myself. I'm glad I posted my notes on it or you wouldn't have caught this!
Hi all ! I do have a question. On page 390, I just can't make out the meaning of
とくにより好みしなければ (column 7 from the right). Can anyone help ? It's not preventing me from getting the general meaning of the sentence (i just ignored that bit) but I'm really curious as to what it means / what nuance it entails. Thanks !
Hi Jon, I can see how this is tricky, but より好み is one word. In kanji it's 選り好み, which can be read as both えりごのみ and よりごのみ. It means being particular, picky or fussy about something. So here it's "as long as I'm not particularly picky…".
とくにより = probably just meaning とくに. I'd say that より is just for emphasis but I don't really know the grammar for sure.
好みしなければ = "If I ignore my personal preferences"
Basically, he's saying "if I don't go by my personal (nuance: picky, maybe even preppy?) preferences of what is a good university, I'll enter some decent university with my grades. So I'm just studying as I usually do."
Day 3 finished. Have still a long way to go but put up with me please. In pg 391, 二回か三回以上は言葉を交わしてなかった。Is this sentence the same as 二回か三回しか言葉を交わしてなかった. And 松本の死は悼んであまりある, what does あまりある add for in this sentence? Also that example where he compared Boeing flying with a wedge in a straight line motion was brilliant.
It's the difference between 'he had spoken to him no more than two or three times' and 'had he only spoken to him two or three times', but effectively, there's no difference.
The nuance of the あまりある is that there is no end to something, or that one is not able to do something completely or exhaustively. So here it has the meaning of 'to be in deep mourning over the death of Matsumoto'/'to be extremely sad about the death of Matsumoto'.
The story is getting so interesting! I wonder if 青木 is somehow involved in 松本の suicide....I can't wait to keep reading!
It's interesting that there's alternate forms of some words. I came across one in the reading for Day 1 (訊ねる as an alternate reading for 尋ねる) and another in today's (摑む as an alternate reading for 掴む). I wonder why these alternate forms are used!
Hello, just wondering if this is the full version of the story or just a section of it? As other readers have commented, the story is getting so interesting! I'm hooked! I'd like to get my hands on the full version before we finish the project so I can continue right where it ended.
Hi! This is the full version, so you don't have to worry about whether you'll get to finish it ;) Glad you're enjoying the reading! Let us know what you think of the sections for the coming days :)
Hello all! I'm not entirely following the pace, I hope that's fine :D
Some notes:
I read the entire first section of the story about the Aoki incident without realizing it was being spoken by Oosawa, I thought it was the other person (first person) narrating his own experience. Let's just say I was slightly confused. xD
I learnt the Kanji of バカ as a combination of a horse and a deer, that was amusing - 馬鹿馬鹿しい
I don't like switching between using kanji and hiragana for words. An example on page 388 would be やつ. こんな奴 -> (2 sentences later) こんなやつ. Is there any particular reason for this changing?
A new "other kanji" for drink 飲む - "呑み込ん" - wasn't expecting this for a super common word like 飲む. "呑み込んでしまったような気分" (p 388)
Question!
Page 385's discussion of how compared to 大沢, 青木 stood out like a "swan in a swamp" (泥沼の中の白鳥みたいに目立ちました)- Is that a reference to anything?
Hi Peter, yes of course it's fine to go at this at your own pace, no pressure!
No particular reason for switching between kanji and kana. It happens a lot, so I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it.
I don't think the swan comparison is a reference to anything (at least, not that I know of). This way of making wild an elaborate analogies is just one of Murakami's idiosyncrasies.
The story is becoming a bit more interesting! The funny thing is that Aoki has done nothing, mostly all of what oozawa has been explaining has been going in his head. The other guy was just living his life and laughed once. Even after getting smacked, Aoki just remained silent and kept on with his life, no threats, no nothing. I'm curious to see how this ends.
Grammar time!
P387 相手が青木でさえなければ僕はそこできちんと謝っていたと思いました。
After some struggling I was able to understand this phrase. Although I'm curious why he used さえ〜ば instead of other conditional forms (Being honest, I don't understand さえ very much)
P388 僕はもう二度と試験勉強に精を出したりはしませんでした。
I don't understand at all why there is a たり in here. I only know the basic たり〜たり list grammar, so seeing just one is strange.
Hi RPD, yeah it gets more interesting as you progress right!
The さえ gives extra emphasis on the "if only" element of the sentence. The sentence would be much weaker if you left it out.
たり in this case means as much as "and similar things". Here the nuance is "I never again put energy into studying for exams (or anything else that's related to being serious about school and grades, etc.)".
Brief update today! Finally got a chance to sit down with the text just now for about an hour, and read the first half of p382. It turns out I missed the last line of p381 and connected the penultimate line to the first line of p382, which... affected the meaning. Just slightly (lol).
It was a pretty comfortable rhythm and pace of scanning the sentence, looking up unknown kanji, and trying to infer the meaning from context (rather than looking up all the grammar structures I don't know, which was distracting), so I think I'm happy with this pace - even though I'll probably have to skip reading fully some of the other comments here to avoid spoilers haha.
In particular, I keep forgetting the meaning of として even though it's come up many times (recently as 何ひとつとして --> not even a single one). Does anyone know the etymology of として / whether it has a kanji version (however rare?)
Since I didn't look any grammar up, I've got some questions to write up tomorrow. But I wonder whether I should ask now about Osawa's speech patterns... maybe I'll ask later once I've compiled some more examples. Good luck everyone with your reading!
Hi Nana, it's really good that you've already found a reading rhythm after just three days!
として is tricky as its meaning depends on the context. In the example you mention, it replaces も, but connotes an even stronger negation.
As it is made up of the particle と and the -て form of the verb する, I suppose technically you could use the kanji 為る, but for one that kanji actually implies an action, which として does not perse (maybe only in AをBとする), and second, I've never once in my life seen kanji used for として. In the end it might be best to think of it as a set phrase in most cases.
Looking forward to your notes on speech patterns!
こんにちは！Firstly, is there a way to write “line 1” in Japanese?「line」をたくさん書くはちょっとうんざりとしたです... (is that the right form of 書く there…)
Ohh, good to know about として! It came up again in one of the questions below T.T
This is only about half of them, but going right in to the grammar questions and (notes):
Page 381:
1. (line 9 - よくわからなかった - I didn’t know it well (よく). よかった and よく are both inflections of 良い.)
2. line 9 - 訊ねてみた - is this just the te-ita-form for 訊ねる or does it carry a different meaning (confused about the みた)
3. line 10 - 行こう としている ところ だった - how do I split this? What form is the 行こう in? Mainly confused by としている - if it’s として / いる or all one thing. Looking at the full sentence: 大沢さんは僕と一緒にこれから新潟に行こうとしているところだった。(If として here means "as", is it 大沢さんは(僕と一緒にこれから新潟に行こう)として いる ところ だった。”In the role of going together with me from here to Niigata to be, Osawa-san was. (way too literal)” Then I’m not sure what ところだった is doing, maybe just making the whole sentence past tense, saying it “was that kind of thing”?
4. (line 11 - recording some examples to see whether I can work out the difference between when to use 始める and 初める: p1 line 12: 中学校の始め, p1 line 16: ボクシングを始めるとき, p2 line 11: 十二月の初め, p2 line 16: ボクシングを始めて) - maybe 始 has more purpose behind it? Whereas 初 is something that would happen anyway? Small sample size so far - I could probably look this up but it seems fun to record it.
5. (line 11 - 降っているらしく = seeming (らしく) to be falling - e.g. he heard it on the news)
6. line 11 - 新潟は朝からひどい雪が降っているらしく、飛行機の出発は予定よりずっと遅れそうだった - is it something like “(Because) it seemed from morning heavy snow was falling in Niigata, other than continuously delaying the flight (there was nothing else that could be done)” - Confused about what exactly より and そう are doing...
7. line 12 - curious about etymology of the ご in ごったがえしていた（ごった返す）
8. line 13 - keep forgetting ついて (regarding) - 便の遅延についてのお知らせを流しつづけ.“News regarding the delay of the flight broadcast [over the loudspeakers]”
Is ついて mostly used as について? Also what’s the ending 流しつづけ - is it a (connective) te-form? (another example - line 14 拭いつづけていた)
I saw 流しつづけ can mean broadcast but it also means to spill etc (for me it reminds me of 流れる which I’ve seen a lot in song lyrics haha) - I wonder if you consider it a poetic word to use in this case? Does it conjure imagery for you of news spilling over the loudspeakers or is it just normal? Are there more common and dedicated words for “broadcast”?
9. line 14 - I’ll refer to the comment on day 1 that addressed this later and that may answer this question. In ききすぎていて (assuming 効く - to work well), what’s the すぎ for? Is it “too much” like it was working way too well?
10. (line 15 - 「基本的には一度もありません」 I have no idea why I marked this now because I think I understand the grammar (possibly I was confused because that’s the first thing he said in ages?). Um. From the context of the next page I think Osawa’s talking about himself?
Because this is the first story I’ve read I can’t tell whether it’s really been ages since anyone talked or whether it’s because I’m slow at reading Japanese… like if this was a passage in English, would I notice the silence and the lack of speech? Or would I just take in all the descriptions at once, as if it’s happening all at once? Learning how to read all over again +1
The text says Osawa said the above after a moment of silence (しばらく沈黙していたあとで). Is this one of those significant silences? At my reading pace, it has certainly been a while since I heard from him. Also his ensuing monologue sounds pretty long to me but I have nothing to compare it with so xD)
Further questions will follow once I finish writing them up :)
Nana! This is really great, you're really getting deep into this story. I love it!
Ok, here we go:
1. -
2. -てみる gives the nuance of giving something a shot/a try. You're doing something of which you're unsure of the outcome.
3. 行こう is the volitional form. This form + とする means 'to be about to...'. The ところ only emphasizes the fact that that thing is about to happen/be performed.
4. 始める is the verb 'to begin something', whereas 初めて is 'first' or 'for the first time'. You often see the latter in compound combinations: 初対面 (first time meeting someone).
5. -
6. 予定よりずっと is 'far more than was the plan/schedule'. The そう in 遅れそう indicates that it 'seems' or 'looks like'. So you get something like 'it looked like the plane was going to depart far later than was initially planned'.
7. I think the ごった comes from the onomatopoeia ゴタゴタ which means 'messy' or 'disorderly'.
8. Similar to として, I think it's best to think of について as one set to mean concerning. If you absolutely want to use kanji you could use に就いて, but you only see this in prewar texts for the most part.
I don't think 流す is poetic. You can simply say 音楽を流す to mean that you're playing music (over the speakers). 流し続け is the ren'yokei form of 流し続ける, and, yes, as you already mentioned, this form may also function as a connective.
9. Correct! The すぎる after the ren'yokei form indicated excess. The kanji is 過ぎる.
10. -
I think the 沈黙 you spotted is not perse significant. I think this is one of the more superficial ones. You'll see why silence is significant in this story toward the end.
I've skipped the ones that seemed more like notes than questions ;) hope this helps :D
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply here! It really helped a lot :3
~continuation (笑)~
11. (line 16 - それはボクシングを始めるときにいや/っていう/くらい (to the extent that)/叩き/こまれるんです - saw a comment on day 1 that addressed this)
12. (line 17 - グラブをつけずに - where’d the ず come from? OH A ZU-FORM? “Without doing” so… “without wearing gloves”)
13. line 17 - 殴っちゃいけないって (must not hit)。line 18 - なっちゃうんです (it accidentally became?). I saw 「ては」 →「ちゃ」(casual). I get that the first example is ちゃ＋いけない → must not do. The second example, is it ちゃう + です? I saw that ちゃう is a conversational form of してしまう. (There’s another question about the んです below) … looking this up is a bit slow so I’d really appreciate it if someone could explain…
14. line 19 - これはただじゃすみません - (as an aside, I feel like I’ve misunderstood ただ; can it be used to say something like これはただ - “that’s it”?) In this phrase, I’m especially confused by what is meant with the じゃ and すみません
Page 382:
15. line 3 - (すぐの頃 - “just around the time”) Are ころ（頃） and ところ（所） related?
16. line 3 - でも言い訳するわけじゃありません. - “But this is no excuse/ but this doesn’t mean that it is an excuse/ but this doesn’t excuse it” I assume わけじゃありません is a form of 訳ではない - does the repetition of 訳 intensify the meaning?
17. (line 5 - Just noting 作る（つくる）”to make” and 付ける（つける）”to attach/wear”. There’s so many meanings for each of these so I’ll use the ones here as anchors...)
18. line 6 - それに殴ろうと思って殴ったわけでもないんです。 → feel like I’m missing something here: “Besides, it’s not like thinking of hitting always means hitting.” (殴ろうと思って is ikoukei + と思います) Maybe it’s context. Did he say this because he just listed a bunch of other activities he did at the gym? Also, is the difference between わけではない and わけでもない similar to the difference between は and も on their own, or is there additional nuance?
19. line 7 - wait is ものすごく like 物静か???! Ohh, it is, 物凄い, awesome! There really was another 物 adjective hehe. Is the difference between 凄い and 物凄い similar to what Bunsukeさん said before about 物静か? (After realising the answer to my next question, it would make sense to be describing someone’s character)
20. (line 7 - ものすごく腹を立てていて - I thought ものすごく would describe how he hit someone, so I don’t quite understand why - wait no I misread 腹 as stomach…. I thought he hit someone in the stomach oops… I thought it was early to be talking about that!! ok so taking 腹 to mean intentions… that makes a lot more sense :3)
21. line 7 - ものを考えるより先に手が出ちゃったんです。How does the より先に work? I get the overall meaning to be that his hand left before he thought about it.
22. line 7 - 止めようもなかったんです - “it was that (...んです) even if (も) I wanted to stop (止めよう volitional) I couldn’t/didn’t (...なかった)”? Is 止めようもなかった all one form of 止める or is なかった a separate verb?
23. line 9 - ぶるぶると震えていました。hehe repetition - it’d make sense if the onomatopoeia derived from 震える - couldn’t find any confirmation on this though - what should I search for if wanting to know more about this kind of etymology?
24. About speech patterns/ things different in direct speech:
Again, I have nothing to compare this to yet, but...
んです (380: お聞きになるんですか, 381: なっちゃうんです, 382: 出ちゃったんです) - I read that this contraction carries an explanatory feel? Which would make sense because there is a lot of explaining.
Wait does the narrator ever speak or is it all reported speech? I might be misremembering (my eyes are starting to glaze over so if I investigate this it’ll be next time) but I’m pretty sure I’ve only seen (so far, it hasn’t been long) Osawa’s words in 「direct speech marks」. In which case it would be cool because to the readers who don’t hear his exact words, the narrator is silent… and the only directly spoken words are Osawa’s explanations… possibly in the next section I read this will be utterly destroyed, but it’s fun to speculate!
No pressure to attempt all of these questions, I know there’s a lot :D Thank you so much Bunsukeさん for what you’ve answered so far!
11. -
12. Exactly!!! Spot on!!
13. Correct, ちゃう is a contracted form of てしまう. The ん is a short version of の in its explanatory function.
14. じゃ is the contracted form of では, and すみません = 済みません. The ただ here - which usually means 'free of cost' - has to be understood a bit broader here. The best way to explain it here might be 'it won't end without there being some kind of price to pay'.
15. You mean because they both have ころ in them? I don't believe they are, but I might ask a linguist friend of mine if there is some etymological connection here.
16. I don't think this should be understood as a repetition. 言い訳 is one word, and わけではない is a phrase. Here, the entire segment you quoted means something like: 'it's not that I'm making excuses, but...'
17. -
18. This is almost like a fixed pattern: ～しようと思ってしたわけじゃない. It means 'it's not like I wanted to do it' (very literally: 'it's not like I did it because I thought: let's do it!') So here it means 'it's not like I wanted to hit him (but that's what ended up happening)'
19. I think in general the もの gives a bit of extra emphasis, especially in the case of ものすごく.
20. No, it doesn't mean intentions here. 腹を立てる means 'to get angry'/'make yourself angry'. So it's saying that he felt very very angry.
21. より先に simply means 'before'. 'My hand moved before I realized it/before I thought (it through)'
22. 止めよう can best be understood here as 'way of stopping' (止め様). So here 'there wasn't even a way of stopping it' → 'there was no way of stopping it'.
23. Great question! I have no idea whether there is an etymological connection there, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was! I'll ask the nearest linguist again ;)
24. Yes! It is explanatory! Great job spotting this!
Hope these help! Really curious to here what you think of the rest of the story!!!
14. Ooh okay, that makes sense! The reason why I'm always chasing after kanji versions of things is probably because I find it easier to grasp the meaning... even if there turns out to be multiple ways to write it once you dig deeper xD
15. Haha you can really tell my understanding is superficial at times, it really was because they both have ころ in them xD My criteria for making a connection is super low haha, but my vocab is only growing so I wonder how this will develop :)
20. Aaah I see! Mostly I avoided putting too much into jisho.org at once but I think that backfired here haha, maybe it's worth putting longer phrases in to check once I've attempted them myself. I'm glad I posted my notes on it or you wouldn't have caught this!
Will reply more in the more recent threads hehe
Hi all ! I do have a question. On page 390, I just can't make out the meaning of
とくにより好みしなければ (column 7 from the right). Can anyone help ? It's not preventing me from getting the general meaning of the sentence (i just ignored that bit) but I'm really curious as to what it means / what nuance it entails. Thanks !
Hi Jon, I can see how this is tricky, but より好み is one word. In kanji it's 選り好み, which can be read as both えりごのみ and よりごのみ. It means being particular, picky or fussy about something. So here it's "as long as I'm not particularly picky…".
Thank you so much, it makes perfect sense now. Thanks for teaching me より好み !
You're welcome! Good luck with today's section!
Damn it's a difficult sentence. I'd say
とくにより = probably just meaning とくに. I'd say that より is just for emphasis but I don't really know the grammar for sure.
好みしなければ = "If I ignore my personal preferences"
Basically, he's saying "if I don't go by my personal (nuance: picky, maybe even preppy?) preferences of what is a good university, I'll enter some decent university with my grades. So I'm just studying as I usually do."
Hi RPD, only slightly off on the parsing but your interpretation was spot on! Great work!
Thanks, both of you. I was unfamiliar with "好み + する" and "より好み" so you both helped immensely. Have a wonderful day !
Day 3 finished. Have still a long way to go but put up with me please. In pg 391, 二回か三回以上は言葉を交わしてなかった。Is this sentence the same as 二回か三回しか言葉を交わしてなかった. And 松本の死は悼んであまりある, what does あまりある add for in this sentence? Also that example where he compared Boeing flying with a wedge in a straight line motion was brilliant.
Hi Myat, that's ok take your time!
It's the difference between 'he had spoken to him no more than two or three times' and 'had he only spoken to him two or three times', but effectively, there's no difference.
The nuance of the あまりある is that there is no end to something, or that one is not able to do something completely or exhaustively. So here it has the meaning of 'to be in deep mourning over the death of Matsumoto'/'to be extremely sad about the death of Matsumoto'.
Hi everyone,
The story is getting so interesting! I wonder if 青木 is somehow involved in 松本の suicide....I can't wait to keep reading!
It's interesting that there's alternate forms of some words. I came across one in the reading for Day 1 (訊ねる as an alternate reading for 尋ねる) and another in today's (摑む as an alternate reading for 掴む). I wonder why these alternate forms are used!
Evelyn
It's such a cliffhanger right??
Yeah, I saw some of the other readers notice the different variants as well.
Btw, 尋 and 訊 are two competely different kanji, whereas 掴 is a simplified version of 摑 (in the same way 国 is the simplified version of 國).
Hello, just wondering if this is the full version of the story or just a section of it? As other readers have commented, the story is getting so interesting! I'm hooked! I'd like to get my hands on the full version before we finish the project so I can continue right where it ended.
Hi! This is the full version, so you don't have to worry about whether you'll get to finish it ;) Glad you're enjoying the reading! Let us know what you think of the sections for the coming days :)
Hello all! I'm not entirely following the pace, I hope that's fine :D
Some notes:
I read the entire first section of the story about the Aoki incident without realizing it was being spoken by Oosawa, I thought it was the other person (first person) narrating his own experience. Let's just say I was slightly confused. xD
I learnt the Kanji of バカ as a combination of a horse and a deer, that was amusing - 馬鹿馬鹿しい
I don't like switching between using kanji and hiragana for words. An example on page 388 would be やつ. こんな奴 -> (2 sentences later) こんなやつ. Is there any particular reason for this changing?
A new "other kanji" for drink 飲む - "呑み込ん" - wasn't expecting this for a super common word like 飲む. "呑み込んでしまったような気分" (p 388)
Question!
Page 385's discussion of how compared to 大沢, 青木 stood out like a "swan in a swamp" (泥沼の中の白鳥みたいに目立ちました)- Is that a reference to anything?
Hi Peter, yes of course it's fine to go at this at your own pace, no pressure!
No particular reason for switching between kanji and kana. It happens a lot, so I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it.
I don't think the swan comparison is a reference to anything (at least, not that I know of). This way of making wild an elaborate analogies is just one of Murakami's idiosyncrasies.
The story is becoming a bit more interesting! The funny thing is that Aoki has done nothing, mostly all of what oozawa has been explaining has been going in his head. The other guy was just living his life and laughed once. Even after getting smacked, Aoki just remained silent and kept on with his life, no threats, no nothing. I'm curious to see how this ends.
Grammar time!
P387 相手が青木でさえなければ僕はそこできちんと謝っていたと思いました。
After some struggling I was able to understand this phrase. Although I'm curious why he used さえ〜ば instead of other conditional forms (Being honest, I don't understand さえ very much)
P388 僕はもう二度と試験勉強に精を出したりはしませんでした。
I don't understand at all why there is a たり in here. I only know the basic たり〜たり list grammar, so seeing just one is strange.
Hi RPD, yeah it gets more interesting as you progress right!
The さえ gives extra emphasis on the "if only" element of the sentence. The sentence would be much weaker if you left it out.
たり in this case means as much as "and similar things". Here the nuance is "I never again put energy into studying for exams (or anything else that's related to being serious about school and grades, etc.)".
Great questions!