This time I tried reading with jp-jp dictionary open rather than a jp-en one, as suggested by 晴れ姉. Understanding the meanings was a bit harder at first, but after getting used to it, it made looking up stuff a lot easier. So much that for this section I think I was able to understanding everything. Definitely seeing some improvement in comprehension after the effort put into the last 2 parts.
Looking back and rereading up to this point, T's plan is becoming a lot clearer. He disguised himself "lightly" and hid his fake beard on purpose, just enough so that his wife would still think it's him, but still leaving enough room for doubt the morning after. This also makes the beard scene clearer. He hid it behind his hand and handkerchief until it was too dark to see, then let his wife feel the beard once and only once before immediately pretending to fall asleep under the futon before she could inquire about the hairy feel.
I wonder if the wife starting to develop feelings for the "other guy" at the end of this segment was expected. Excited to continue reading the story.
Yes this is what I was hoping would happen. Not only does reading become easier as you progress, but you also retroactively gain more insight what you've already tried to decipher. And this is just within a few pages. Imagine what would happen if you did this on a regular basis. The fun thing is that after about a year you'll be amazed at the things you found difficult a year earlier. Great job Levi, keep up the good work!
I use a jp-en dictionary to decode the jp-jp dictionary a lot of the time, haha. I just use jp-jp when it's a more obscure term that jsho doesn't have.
That's already a big step up! You'll notice that in time you'll go for the J-J dictionary more often because in many cases the J-E dictionary can be quite limited. You're already making great progress, congrats!
I just downloaded the weblio app and have decided that I will be using this from now on, it has so many nuanced explanations and extra information and like 4 times the entries.
(I think the x shows that the kanji usage is archaic?)
Thank you for this information, I also just looked at weblio on my computer and it is indeed very good. Looking Japanese up in Japanese, although so much harder, so how is easier to understand.
Here is the vocabulary list. There might be some overlap. I tried to do the best I could, but as always there could be some mistakes. I found some kanji's more difficult than the previous pages.
Is there a reason for the switch from 女房 to 細君 in the text? Japanese seems to have an infinite number of words for wife and I can't figure out what the subtle differences might be! I tried to read a page that explained it but as it was in Japanese I wasn't sure I understood, haha. Is 女房 more hypothetical/generalized?
I'm enjoying the style of the story a lot. It's very conversational and fitting for such a comedy.
Thank you to everyone who is commenting. It's helping me a lot with confirming my own reading and clarifying parts that are difficult. And thank you particularly to Bunsuke san for so actively answering questions and confirming interpretations! いい勉強になりました！
Thanks Bookie, for the generous compliment. I love reading in this way with other people, figuring the text out together as we go along. I'd love, at some point, to do this live on Zoom or perhaps (less interactively) on YouTube. We'll see...I'm just glad you're getting something out of this and having a good time with it too :)
And yes, there are many words for 'wife'. It's difficult to say whether there is any kind of definitive difference between these, except that 細君 is archaic and no longer in use. For reference, I'll paste this handy overview I found on the web below. All of the definitions come from the 日本国語大辞典, perhaps the most authoritative dictionary in existence.
1:それは前もってちゃんと頼み込んであろうのだ (he'd earnestly pleaded for it beforehand? Is this a break between paraphrasing?)
2: そのアリバイを勤めたのかって (are you your own alibi?)
3: お前、そんなことを言って、実はソッとどこかの男を引き入れているのではないか、などと脅しつけてみたり、それがまた、Tには、なんとも愉快でたまらないと言うのだから、因果さ。("you're saying that kind of stuff but in reality you're quietly getting a man from somewhere aren't you, or threatening him maybe, you(T?)'d find despicable pleasure in that, it's karma." Like, this makes no sense to me whatsoever. It has "you" and "T" in the same sentence; is this still paraphrasing? And this all uses kinda(?) male language, doesn't it? So it's either the author, or T, neither of which make sense, ahhhhhhh) so I gave up on understanding that part (something I did more than once today that has saved me at least an hour).
4: 細君、前に懲りているから (is the wife learning from experience, or T learning from experience with his wife?)
5: 騒ぎだしゃしない
6: 寝入るというころ (the state of being asleep?)
7: 手筈にしたが、なんと、それが、再びうまく成功したではないか。(he made plans, but they didn't succeed for some reason?)
8: はっきりした実在の人物になってきた ([to the wife, the man who'd left the cigarette case and handkerchief] was becoming clearer in personality?)
9: いわば笑い話にすぎないけれど (by context I gather this to mean 'a rather funny story, as it were', but then why is it すぎない？)
10: 人間の心が、いかに頼りない、そしてまた不思議なものだかといったふうにちょっと考えさせられるものを含んでいるのだよ (human nature is somewhat untrustworthy, so some of the more fantastical elements are to be taken with a grain of salt?)
11: 女なんて実際わからないものだ。(she really doesn't understand women? That just seems out of place)
Man these are a lot, but it's mostly because I've stopped having as many overriding "I have no idea what's going on" moments, leading me to instead comment on my uncertainties. These are Mostly phrases whose individual components I understood, but not as a whole and with context .
Also, commenting the parts I don't understand actually really help me with figuring them out at least partly, because until I have to give my best shot at translating, the sentences I don't understand just kinda drown in question marks in the recesses of my mind
1. あるのだ instead of あろうのだ. This means that, to make his alibi watertight, T probably asked some friend to vouch for him in case his wife asks around about his whereabouts the night before.
2. As in other places, the narrator sometimes talks directly to the reader (in fact, similar to a rakugo master). Here is does the same by saying to us: 'You're asking whether it was me who took on the role of holding up that alibi? No, no I wasn't', referring to the friend from point 1.
3. (T saying to his wife) 'You're saying that, but isn't it the case that in reality you brought home some other guy? T tried to pressure her in this way, which in turn, gave T much pleasure, well that's karma for you.' The outcome of this karma will become clear later on.
4. The wife has learned from the past.
5. 騒ぎ出しやしないか, the や is a colloquial version of は. The phrase indicates that he's worried she'll make a fuss if he'd dress up in the same way he did last time.
6. Around the time she falls asleep.
7. He planned it in this way, and, surprise, it worked again!
8. (that fictional person he came up with) was becoming a real-life person.
9. ～にすぎない simply means 'it is nothing more than...' or 'it's just...' or 'it's only...'. This is a pattern that occurs often, so it's worth remembering.
10. We are confronted (lit. 'it includes something that forces us to think about...') with the fact that human nature is not to be trusted, and a very strange thing.
11. You can never really understand a woman. You can never tell what a women is thinking/is going to do etc. Women are unpredictable.
I think for 3, the narrator is basically not using quotations when paraphrasing so there's both T speaking and then the narrator. in that sentence.
お前、そんなことを言って、実はソッとどこかの男を引き入れているのではないか? This is T speaking
And then the などと脅しつけてみたり part is basically indicating that now the narrator is saying that T was using threats like this and other things at his wife, the など being the indication that the paraphrasing of T's speech has ended. But I don't entirely know what the last bit is about. Either he's basically saying the same things his wife often says to him as a weird attempt at karma against her or I don't know.
For 9: I think in this context すぎる may indicate ending, like the funny story being over. The hilariousness of the story hasn't ended, (笑い話にすぎない）. This is a very conversational sentence, so he's starting off with これまでのところはね as if this he means to say something is ending, but then sort of changes his mind and is like まあ、then says it's not really the end of the funny story, but it becomes a little more serious (堅い) from here on out.
These are my guesses but they're guesses so I'd confirm elsewhere.
Even guesses add a new perspective to contemplate from. I definitely think you're right about 3, and number 9 would also explain away the すぎない pretty well. Thanks!
T was actually idle enough to repeat his prank as much as 4 times? The narrator seems to be speculating on what the wife is really thinking/feeling since she's kind to this supposed stranger who keeps leaving behind proof that he was there. If she's not secretly playing along with T's game...it's a bit creepy that she's not more worried about a 'stanger' visiting her at night.
I've grown more interested in T's wife as a person. I want to understand what she's really thinking. T reminds me of 'the boy who cried wolf' and I'm guessing his plan will backfire by the end of the story. We'll see.
The narrator adds tension by saying 「これから先は、話が少し堅くなってくるのだよ。」～ From now on, the story becomes a bit tough/serious (whereas before it was mostly funny). He goes on to say that what happens next will be thought-provoking.
If I understood what the wife says at the end of page 111/beginning of page 112, she starts to want the 'stranger' to come to her at night, feeling lonely if he doesn't and wondering when next he'll come. T notices his wife's change of heart and I expect him to continue being stupid.
Ai, you're assessments are always sharp as a knife :D we're slowly reaching the end. What do you think will happen? I was quite surprised by the ending, but I'll share that on day 5.
I'm expecting T's wife to do something unexpected, whether in ignorance or in cunning - meaning T will lose control of the situation. The story is getting so interesting that I broke my own rule and double-checked my understanding by looking up lots of words and phrases!
as usual in Japanese, there is not mentioned clearly enough, who is talking and where it starts.
In the first line, words staring with ”自分はゆうべｘｘいえで。。。”probably are spoken by T, but where does his speak ends? Surely it ends somewhere before: "......Ｔには、何とも愉快でたまらないというのだから、因果さ". - by the why, what doestit mean?
Ehh, this part is really hard, but I hope to understand the whole text better when we get to the end. Let's keep reading!
Hi Dana, in the first line T isn't speaking directly. The narrator is simply paraphrasing what T said to his wife. This is why it's sometimes confusing, but it's all the narrator speaking, alternating between telling the story and paraphrasing what was said.
It's alright if this bit is a struggle, just give it your full attention once, and then move on regardless of whether you've understood everything. Things will become clearer toward the end.
You're almost there!!! Today is already day 4 :D I should remind you, you're reading actual literature that was written almost a century ago. Not a textbook made for foreigners, not a story about Japan's seasons written for exchange students. This is the actual thing, and you're doing it!!!
This time I tried reading with jp-jp dictionary open rather than a jp-en one, as suggested by 晴れ姉. Understanding the meanings was a bit harder at first, but after getting used to it, it made looking up stuff a lot easier. So much that for this section I think I was able to understanding everything. Definitely seeing some improvement in comprehension after the effort put into the last 2 parts.
Looking back and rereading up to this point, T's plan is becoming a lot clearer. He disguised himself "lightly" and hid his fake beard on purpose, just enough so that his wife would still think it's him, but still leaving enough room for doubt the morning after. This also makes the beard scene clearer. He hid it behind his hand and handkerchief until it was too dark to see, then let his wife feel the beard once and only once before immediately pretending to fall asleep under the futon before she could inquire about the hairy feel.
I wonder if the wife starting to develop feelings for the "other guy" at the end of this segment was expected. Excited to continue reading the story.
Yes this is what I was hoping would happen. Not only does reading become easier as you progress, but you also retroactively gain more insight what you've already tried to decipher. And this is just within a few pages. Imagine what would happen if you did this on a regular basis. The fun thing is that after about a year you'll be amazed at the things you found difficult a year earlier. Great job Levi, keep up the good work!
I use a jp-en dictionary to decode the jp-jp dictionary a lot of the time, haha. I just use jp-jp when it's a more obscure term that jsho doesn't have.
That's already a big step up! You'll notice that in time you'll go for the J-J dictionary more often because in many cases the J-E dictionary can be quite limited. You're already making great progress, congrats!
I just downloaded the weblio app and have decided that I will be using this from now on, it has so many nuanced explanations and extra information and like 4 times the entries.
(I think the x shows that the kanji usage is archaic?)
こ-こ【×呱×呱】
赤ん坊の泣く声。特に、生まれてすぐの泣き声。
That's so specific O.O
That's great! I think you'll get used to it quickly, and you'll get so much more out of the text that way :)
Thank you for this information, I also just looked at weblio on my computer and it is indeed very good. Looking Japanese up in Japanese, although so much harder, so how is easier to understand.
Good to know, is it free to download?
Yup
Reading project pages 110-111
探偵 たんてい detective
小説 しょうせつ novel; (short) story
勤める つとめる to work (for)
夢 ゆめ dream
証拠 しょうこ evidence; proof
昔 むかし olden days; former
書物 しょもつ books
離魂病 りこんびよう sleepwalking?
disease of the soul?
怪談 かいだん ghost story
実は じつは as a matter of fact
愉快 ゆかい pleasant; happy
因果 いんが cause and effect
幾度 いくども、いくたび (how) many times; (how) often
続ける つづける to continue
夢 ゆめうつつ half asleep and half awake;
trance; dream and reality
瞬間 しゅんかん moment; second; instant
縫いつける ぬいつける to sew on
成功 せいこう success; hit
似たりよったり にたりよったり to resemble, look like
青ざめる あおざめる to turn pale
狂言 きょうげん kabuki
make believe trick?
上達 じょうたつ improvement in skill, ability
笑い話 わらいばなし funny story
第 だい ordinal
際 さい on the occasion of;
Juncture
に対して にたいして towards; against
逢瀬 おうせ lover’s meeting, secret
date
彼女 かのじょ She, her, girlfriend
親切 しんせつ kind, gentle
Here is the vocabulary list. There might be some overlap. I tried to do the best I could, but as always there could be some mistakes. I found some kanji's more difficult than the previous pages.
This is great!! In this context, 離魂病 is the phenomenon that the soul leaves the body as if the person is split in two.
But in the phrase アリバイを勤めた - 勤める must have another meaning than to work (for)?
Dana
Is there a reason for the switch from 女房 to 細君 in the text? Japanese seems to have an infinite number of words for wife and I can't figure out what the subtle differences might be! I tried to read a page that explained it but as it was in Japanese I wasn't sure I understood, haha. Is 女房 more hypothetical/generalized?
I'm enjoying the style of the story a lot. It's very conversational and fitting for such a comedy.
Thank you to everyone who is commenting. It's helping me a lot with confirming my own reading and clarifying parts that are difficult. And thank you particularly to Bunsuke san for so actively answering questions and confirming interpretations! いい勉強になりました！
Thanks Bookie, for the generous compliment. I love reading in this way with other people, figuring the text out together as we go along. I'd love, at some point, to do this live on Zoom or perhaps (less interactively) on YouTube. We'll see...I'm just glad you're getting something out of this and having a good time with it too :)
And yes, there are many words for 'wife'. It's difficult to say whether there is any kind of definitive difference between these, except that 細君 is archaic and no longer in use. For reference, I'll paste this handy overview I found on the web below. All of the definitions come from the 日本国語大辞典, perhaps the most authoritative dictionary in existence.
妻：①（ロ）男性にとって妻、恋人である女性。②婚姻関係にある女性。特に法律では、婚姻届の出された正式の女性だけをさし、内縁関係にある女性は含まない。
嫁：①息子と結婚してその家の一員となった女性。子息の妻。②妻。妻女。女房。また、結婚した当座の女子の称。③単に妻を呼んでいう。人妻。
奥さん：（「おくさま（奥様）」の変化した語）「おくさま」より少しくだけた言い方。現在、一般に最も広く用いられる。
奥さま：公家（くげ）の内室、大名の正妻など、身分のある人の妻を敬って呼ぶ語。のちには上流の武家や富商の妻などにもいい、現在では広く一般に用いられる。また、使用人などがその家の女主人を敬って言う語。奥御（おくご）。奥。
家内：②妻。自分の妻を謙遜していう場合が多い。
かみさん：②身分のあまり高くない、主として商人や職人などの妻。それらの主婦。また、女主人。 ③自分の妻を、親しい間柄でいう。
細君：①他人に対して、自分の妻をいう語。 ②（転じて）他人の妻をいう。
女房：③中世以後、妻をいう。妻女。近世には、自分の妻を呼ぶとき「女房ども」ともいう。現代では、多少とも卑しめた気持をもっていい、自分の妻のことをいう場合に多く用いられる。
Indeed I also found that lovely, so many words for wife.
I'm back with more things I'm not sure about:
1:それは前もってちゃんと頼み込んであろうのだ (he'd earnestly pleaded for it beforehand? Is this a break between paraphrasing?)
2: そのアリバイを勤めたのかって (are you your own alibi?)
3: お前、そんなことを言って、実はソッとどこかの男を引き入れているのではないか、などと脅しつけてみたり、それがまた、Tには、なんとも愉快でたまらないと言うのだから、因果さ。("you're saying that kind of stuff but in reality you're quietly getting a man from somewhere aren't you, or threatening him maybe, you(T?)'d find despicable pleasure in that, it's karma." Like, this makes no sense to me whatsoever. It has "you" and "T" in the same sentence; is this still paraphrasing? And this all uses kinda(?) male language, doesn't it? So it's either the author, or T, neither of which make sense, ahhhhhhh) so I gave up on understanding that part (something I did more than once today that has saved me at least an hour).
4: 細君、前に懲りているから (is the wife learning from experience, or T learning from experience with his wife?)
5: 騒ぎだしゃしない
6: 寝入るというころ (the state of being asleep?)
7: 手筈にしたが、なんと、それが、再びうまく成功したではないか。(he made plans, but they didn't succeed for some reason?)
8: はっきりした実在の人物になってきた ([to the wife, the man who'd left the cigarette case and handkerchief] was becoming clearer in personality?)
9: いわば笑い話にすぎないけれど (by context I gather this to mean 'a rather funny story, as it were', but then why is it すぎない？)
10: 人間の心が、いかに頼りない、そしてまた不思議なものだかといったふうにちょっと考えさせられるものを含んでいるのだよ (human nature is somewhat untrustworthy, so some of the more fantastical elements are to be taken with a grain of salt?)
11: 女なんて実際わからないものだ。(she really doesn't understand women? That just seems out of place)
Man these are a lot, but it's mostly because I've stopped having as many overriding "I have no idea what's going on" moments, leading me to instead comment on my uncertainties. These are Mostly phrases whose individual components I understood, but not as a whole and with context .
Also, commenting the parts I don't understand actually really help me with figuring them out at least partly, because until I have to give my best shot at translating, the sentences I don't understand just kinda drown in question marks in the recesses of my mind
1. あるのだ instead of あろうのだ. This means that, to make his alibi watertight, T probably asked some friend to vouch for him in case his wife asks around about his whereabouts the night before.
2. As in other places, the narrator sometimes talks directly to the reader (in fact, similar to a rakugo master). Here is does the same by saying to us: 'You're asking whether it was me who took on the role of holding up that alibi? No, no I wasn't', referring to the friend from point 1.
3. (T saying to his wife) 'You're saying that, but isn't it the case that in reality you brought home some other guy? T tried to pressure her in this way, which in turn, gave T much pleasure, well that's karma for you.' The outcome of this karma will become clear later on.
4. The wife has learned from the past.
5. 騒ぎ出しやしないか, the や is a colloquial version of は. The phrase indicates that he's worried she'll make a fuss if he'd dress up in the same way he did last time.
6. Around the time she falls asleep.
7. He planned it in this way, and, surprise, it worked again!
8. (that fictional person he came up with) was becoming a real-life person.
9. ～にすぎない simply means 'it is nothing more than...' or 'it's just...' or 'it's only...'. This is a pattern that occurs often, so it's worth remembering.
10. We are confronted (lit. 'it includes something that forces us to think about...') with the fact that human nature is not to be trusted, and a very strange thing.
11. You can never really understand a woman. You can never tell what a women is thinking/is going to do etc. Women are unpredictable.
Sorry for the late reply! Hope this helps!
Don't worry about being 'late', the mere fact you go through so much effort to help is amazing! Thank you so much! This has definitely helped
I think for 3, the narrator is basically not using quotations when paraphrasing so there's both T speaking and then the narrator. in that sentence.
お前、そんなことを言って、実はソッとどこかの男を引き入れているのではないか? This is T speaking
And then the などと脅しつけてみたり part is basically indicating that now the narrator is saying that T was using threats like this and other things at his wife, the など being the indication that the paraphrasing of T's speech has ended. But I don't entirely know what the last bit is about. Either he's basically saying the same things his wife often says to him as a weird attempt at karma against her or I don't know.
For 9: I think in this context すぎる may indicate ending, like the funny story being over. The hilariousness of the story hasn't ended, (笑い話にすぎない）. This is a very conversational sentence, so he's starting off with これまでのところはね as if this he means to say something is ending, but then sort of changes his mind and is like まあ、then says it's not really the end of the funny story, but it becomes a little more serious (堅い) from here on out.
These are my guesses but they're guesses so I'd confirm elsewhere.
Even guesses add a new perspective to contemplate from. I definitely think you're right about 3, and number 9 would also explain away the すぎない pretty well. Thanks!
T was actually idle enough to repeat his prank as much as 4 times? The narrator seems to be speculating on what the wife is really thinking/feeling since she's kind to this supposed stranger who keeps leaving behind proof that he was there. If she's not secretly playing along with T's game...it's a bit creepy that she's not more worried about a 'stanger' visiting her at night.
I've grown more interested in T's wife as a person. I want to understand what she's really thinking. T reminds me of 'the boy who cried wolf' and I'm guessing his plan will backfire by the end of the story. We'll see.
The narrator adds tension by saying 「これから先は、話が少し堅くなってくるのだよ。」～ From now on, the story becomes a bit tough/serious (whereas before it was mostly funny). He goes on to say that what happens next will be thought-provoking.
If I understood what the wife says at the end of page 111/beginning of page 112, she starts to want the 'stranger' to come to her at night, feeling lonely if he doesn't and wondering when next he'll come. T notices his wife's change of heart and I expect him to continue being stupid.
Ai, you're assessments are always sharp as a knife :D we're slowly reaching the end. What do you think will happen? I was quite surprised by the ending, but I'll share that on day 5.
I'm expecting T's wife to do something unexpected, whether in ignorance or in cunning - meaning T will lose control of the situation. The story is getting so interesting that I broke my own rule and double-checked my understanding by looking up lots of words and phrases!
Haha, well, if you HAVE to break rules, those are the ones you want to break :P
Hello everybody,
as usual in Japanese, there is not mentioned clearly enough, who is talking and where it starts.
In the first line, words staring with ”自分はゆうべｘｘいえで。。。”probably are spoken by T, but where does his speak ends? Surely it ends somewhere before: "......Ｔには、何とも愉快でたまらないというのだから、因果さ". - by the why, what doestit mean?
Ehh, this part is really hard, but I hope to understand the whole text better when we get to the end. Let's keep reading!
regards, Dana
Hi Dana, in the first line T isn't speaking directly. The narrator is simply paraphrasing what T said to his wife. This is why it's sometimes confusing, but it's all the narrator speaking, alternating between telling the story and paraphrasing what was said.
It's alright if this bit is a struggle, just give it your full attention once, and then move on regardless of whether you've understood everything. Things will become clearer toward the end.
You're almost there!!! Today is already day 4 :D I should remind you, you're reading actual literature that was written almost a century ago. Not a textbook made for foreigners, not a story about Japan's seasons written for exchange students. This is the actual thing, and you're doing it!!!