Thank you all for sharing your progress! I only made it through the first page and felt bad for being so slow. Looking up all the kanji anf thinking about the grammar takes so much time. Thought about giving up to read further and join the next reading project (whenever that may be). But now I’m motivated again! :)
Hi Valerie, you're doing great! I remember reading my very first page (also Murakami) and it took me 6 hours, and I had to look up every word. So take it slow, don't rush. You're already making great strides. The fact that it takes time means that you're doing it right and that you're really actively engaging with the text. You should be proud, you're actually reading a story in Japanese, how cool is that!!! Hope to hear again from you tomorrow :D
I'm in a similar boat, Valerie. It took me forever to read through the first page because I need to look up almost every term, even when I'm skipping things to avoid perfection. It tuckered me out pretty fast. But we're both getting through it, and I've already done a lot more reading than I usually do. I hope you keep at it!
Thanks a lot Bunsuke for setting up the thread! It’s great to see more people joining in! So far I’ve gone through today’s scheduled pages and, as some other readers have mentioned, I find it very useful sometimes to read “structure focus” -that is, just identifying the grammar patterns and the feel of the sentences before actually re-reading with the vocab. I remember reading that in an online blog.
Kanji search is a little bit less excruciating with the Jisho radical search function, but that’s by far the most time-consuming thing, so maybe for people focusing more on grammar this option could be useful. Nevertheless, I’m planning to re- read tomorrow with the vocab I still have missing.
Regarding には, which I’ve seen some people are struggling with, I really recommend Imabi’s explanation. Maybe most of you already know it, but just in case, to put it simply, it’s a free grammar website which teaches Japanese from the basics to very advances level. What people usually don’t like about it is that it’s not a “friendly explanation” site. That is, it’s very very detailed and quite linguistic-oriented. That being said, for me it’s the best website in order to grasp things fully, because it leaves nothing unexplained, even the slightest of nuances. In fact, I’m using it as my main manual. Here’s the link to the site (grammar points are classified according to level: check those for “The Particle に” (I-II, etc.)
If anyone is interested, I processed the pdf with OCR (and rotated the pages that were flipped) and while not perfect, most kanji can then be copied and pasted into jisho, for example. Much simpler than trying to find the kanji by radical or drawing...
As I expected, it was hard, really, really hard, as I expected hahahaha. I ended up being able to only read 2 of the pages before my head started to ache a little and I realized I had to take a break. I will still try to compensate later, maybe continue reading, maybe trying something else to keep it a fresh experience.
What I noticed is that the big obstacle is the number of kanjis that I simply don't know yet. I went after each one of them manually, but that took a big chunk of the time I spent on the book up until now, but I guess there's no helping it.
What I'm worried about is that I'll probably soon forget about them. I'm thinking about keeping a notebook by my side and each new word would be written in there for a quick check later and hopefully writing it myself will help me remember it. I wonder if the idea is worth the time it will take?
As for what I read so far, the story is pretty nice and I'm happy that even though I got a little frustrated, I was able to at least get an idea of what was going on in a more general sense (I cheated a little and checked afterwards the english version up until where I stopped just to make sure :p).
In general, I'm proud of what I was able to do, considering everything; hope I can get back to it soon so I won't be left in the dust.
Hi Matt, it's so great that you got as far as two pages, just keep going, you'll get there! Just give it time. I think that your eyes and brain will start to adjust as you keep reading and you'll see improvement even by the end of this intensive week.
I realize looking everything up manually is a pain, but in my book, it's the only way to go. What I used to do is keep a list of words/kanji that I didn't know, all written by hand. It was not fun! BUT it really worked wonders after some time. I never used the list to repeat what I had learned. Rather, the act of writing down the words, spending time with the thing you're struggling with to remember, that process is incredibly important. The worst thing is that you don't feel you're improving while you're doing it. But if you stick with it I promise you'll notice the difference over time.
Really proud of you too, keep going, and keep posting your questions here! Looking forward to hearing more from you soon.
よろしくお願いします Mattさん, hope you don't mind a reply :3 Yeah no kidding... when I went through to begin with I was highlighting everything I could pronounce (including all the hiragana after unknown kanji, of which there were many...) to make it look a bit more friendly (and get an idea of how far off I was) - but when actually translating sentence by sentence it was super slow since I had to look up everything unfamiliar. Kanji I've seen for the first time while reading something with a plot sticks better though, so that's something I guess...?
I used a phone app to handwrite the kanji then once I worked out the reading I would use online dictionaries since there's usually more context. I wonder if there's a more streamlined approach... actually I feel spoiled by Bunsukeさん's carefully curated newsletters now, it saves so much time...
I tried a couple different methods of recording new stuff (annotating on the printout, keeping a list), but in the end I ended up copying out the sentences to figure out sentence structure and had everything (reading, meaning, attempted translation) on the same page. This was really time consuming though (I don't mind since I like writing by hand haha) - hopefully what I wrote will stick in my head for next time I see it in context...
(Took Bunsukeさん's tip from last time (very very long ago now... I have been procrastinating a lot) of separating "reading time" (reading aloud the rhythm of the sentence, skipping stuff I can't pronounce) from "translating time" (trying to understand the meaning of the sentence, using external resources))
I think one of my goals this project is to keep going while avoiding burnout (not sure what this means for the volume I'll get through!) Sorry if this is very forward of me but it's nice to be reading together and to hear everyone's experiences :)
Great that you're getting in touch with each other! This is actually what I had hoped would happen. Reading together is so much more enjoying than having the feeling that you're doing it all alone.
And slow is good! Feeling the agony of having to look everything up means that you're actually engaging with the material. Trust me, I know it sucks at times, but this is really the only way to get through it. No automatically generated vocab lists, no flashy flashcards. Just wrestling with the text, looking things up, and enjoying the process without shortcuts. You're doing great, so keep going!
ooh yeah I get what you mean, it's been a heck of a long time and I'm still trying to find the best way to get it all in my head. The frustration that comes from time to time is what makes me procrastinate the most, until eventually I feel like giving another go. July has been by far the month I pushed myself the most since I started, I wonder how long I can hold on like this.
I'm still expecting at least another 2 or 3 years before I start to feel confident by myself, but hey now, having a training buddy like you to connect and struggle with is already wonderful ya know :D
Hehe awesome, I've listened to Japanese music for years but only in the past few really tried to get into the language. Endurance is key! Hope to check in with you tomorrow as well to see how it goes! I wonder, will you try to catch up by finishing all of today's assigned 4 pages, as well as tomorrow's, by tomorrow's discussion time? I wonder the same for me...
hmm now that is the question. I could replace the book I read before going to sleep tonight (or at least for this week) with this one instead, but I really don't know. I guess I will at least try to catch up the last 2 pages and read the rest tomorrow (I hope). Considering I'll try taking some notes, it will probably take even longer than before.
If I had an impossible amount of confidence, I would say to you that I was going to read the 2 pages from today plus the 4 from tomorrow all at once, but I know that's a no-no from me XD
Here hoping to update with you tomorrow too. No throwing in the towel for any of us now.
Before anything else, I just wanted to say that I think this was a great idea! I was a bit busy and only got through two pages yesterday, so I'm trying to catch up today. However, so far I'm wondering about this one sentence: それはボクシングを始めるときにいやっていうくらい叩きこまれるんです。I think I'm specifically having trouble with the っていうくらい part. Is he saying that he was told not to do it (or hated it) so much that they had to drill it into him to hit someone? Thanks in advance.
Correct! It basically says that when you start boxing they drill it in you that you must not fight anyone outside the ring, and they repeat that to the extent that it is annoying/exhausting etc.
Hello, I’m excited to be reading along with you all! I decided on this method of reading - I’m annotating the PDF with the kanji readings (and if necessary the English translation of individual words) for one page, then reading through it again a couple of times to see if understand the story. I surprised myself by finding it not too difficult, and so far there’s not too many new words or kanji for me! I guess I’ve been working towards this point for a while now, but this is the first adult native level short story I’ve attempted. I’m not a really detail-oriented person and grammar is not my strong point, but I’m happy if I can understand what is happening in the story, and so far so good. I’ll copy out new kanji by hand too, as suggested, and see how that goes for retention, and maybe remove my annotations later if I think I can read without them… I love how it’s recognisably Murakami, even in Japanese. I’m also enjoying reading everyone’s comments!
Hey Renee - I really loved this point you make: that we can see it's Murakami. Isn't it funny: he actually wrote all of this in Japanese, but we've come to know his style in translation. It's fresh for us to see his actual (original) style! I suppose that's credit to the translators for somehow letting that come through...
Hi Renee, wow it's great to hear things are going smoothly! How cool is it that you're reading an actual story, even though (if I understand correctly) this is your first attempt at it. Keep us up to date which method of reading/annotating worked best for you in the end. Hope to hear from you tomorrow :)
Up until now I’ve been reading all kinds of texts for the JLPTN3 and 2, and I’m in my final semester at uni with a Japanese major. I’ve also been reading lots of books aimed at Japanese elementary school kids, and Satori Reader. But yes, first short story!
I'm enjoying this little project as I'm quite free this week :D. I'm slowly working by rewriting the story onto a word document (so I know what the readings of the kanji are) then breaking bits down that are new or I don't feel I really understand. I might stop rewriting it, but it's partly so it's easier to read through for me if I'm gonna spend some time looking at it~
This feels like a really good level for me to be honest, I can read through most of the kanji (of course not all), but the grammar/meaning aspect is tough after previously practicing with mostly children's books! It took me about 30 minutes per page to rewrite it out!
One of my first questions was about using kanji in this way:
訊ねる instead of 尋ねる
肯く instead of 頷く
When I search 訊ねる on jisho.org, I see 尋ねる as the main entry and 訊ねる is listed as an "other form".
Is there any enlightenment you can give about such "other forms"? Are there any fairly common usages you can think of? Is there a meaning difference? Is the context what matters?
Another question would be any advice when trying to decipher bunches of hiragana missing kanji, for example the following:
「レストランの暖房はいささかききすぎて。。。」 which I'm guessing is the same as -> 「レストランの暖房はいささか効きすぎて。。。」
Is it just practice and getting used to it? Because my brain read "いささかきき" (??? wat) followed by "すぎて" (too much), then just melted slightly.
I might have some grammar questions tomorrow if that's ok, I still haven't finished properly digging into this section yet :p
Hi Peter, thanks so much for you're comment. I'm glad to see you're enjoying the project! 30 minutes per page is great, especially as you said you have some time. Two hours a day on this won't drive you mad, although it might prove challenging at some points.
As for the "other forms", I think this is why reading literature is so great. There are so many other forms that are regularly used in literature, but which you never see mentioned in the standard textbooks. 訊ねる is perhaps even more common than 尋ねる in literature, but you can use the same kanji to write 訊く instead of 聞く. And indeed, as you mentioned 肯く as well as 頷く. This means you have to loosen up your brain to the meanings of certain kanji to infer their reading. When you know the word 肯定する, then うなずく for the first kanji becomes a more logical reading. One example that you will see much less frequent is はじめる with the kanji 首, especially in the context of ～を首め (to begin with...). This is an extreme example that you almost never encounter in actual postwar text, but once you link the two together, you get a deeper understanding of the kanji itself. This just takes time, and there are countless other examples. 足音 can also be written as 跫音 etc. The more literature you read, the more you'll get used to this.
Same goes for いささかききすぎて, which technically would become 聊か効きすぎて or 些か効きすぎて. Over time, your brain will just automatically split these words as it anticipates them in a certain context.
You all are acing me! I got through the first page and got bogged down on looking up characters and phrases and re-reading. But I figure: that's the way it is. Just keep going and share.
So: Maybe my dictionary is limited but what is ぎらっとした? A Japanese friend of mine suggested it's a darker version of きら but I wonder if anyone else ran into this little odd item.
Hi Jim, glad you were able to find it in the end. Searching for ぎらぎら will also get you there. I think your friend is right, as a general rule, when you add the so-called 濁点 to an onomatopoeia, expression has an overall more negative or gloomy connotation.
I looked that one up too! Once I did I was surprised because I felt I should have known it from Ado's song ギラギラ... I guess I wasn't expecting it to crop up here.
I'm curious why your friend thought it was a darker version? Darker like less dazzling, or in a horror story way?
I was a bit confused by the した on the end of ぎらっとした though, I'd written it down to ask about later haha. Is it part of the adverb? The other part where I didn't understand the した was ちょおとした... which... now looking back on it, combined with previous knowledge of 大した... seems like it's for adverbs huh...
Hi Nana. Yeah, I'm not sure why my friend characterized it as dark. My guess is she was referring to the whole sentence and not just this part.
Great question aboutとする. I've seen it but never really understood it exactly. So I dove into Seiichi Makino's Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar, which describes this as "to look" or "to feel" or "to have a sensory or psychological experience" (DIJG 523). One of his examples: 姉は足がすらっとする。("My older sister has slender legs.")なるほど。
Great question! とする is usually added to make it an adjective: きらきらとした目. You can also end the sentence with it: 彼女の目はきらきらとしていた. You cannot say 彼女の目はきらきらだった. If you want to make an adverb, simply use と: 彼女の目はきらきらと光っていた。
the と actually carries some meaning. I lost the page that explained it (it was some kokugo website in japanese) but basically, an onomatopeia with と is one that has the nuance of intention. For example:
(after getting drunk) ふらふらと歩いている。
(a patient in a hospital) ふらふら歩いている。
I found this insight particularly helpful, because its usually said that whether an adverb has と or not is something to be memorized, but it actually isnt. Similar to the difference between な and の adjectives, which is usually memorized but actually carries meaning (see the great tofugu post about it in case that someone doesnt know what Im talking about!)
Hi RPD, this is a really interesting topic. For me, either version can been used in either situation. I'll ask around two. A friend of mine is a linguist, and in my mind this is the stuff he thinks about all day long (hahah probably not true...) but I'll try to get his opinion. Really fascinating stuff when you get to the nitty gritty!
Thank you both for your replies! I think I did mean adjective and not adverb before oops... makes a lot more sense now :) inordinately proud that I can read your example sentences easily hehe, I wouldn't have been able to last year
Hi Bunsuke! First of all thank you for doing this project! It's been very immersive so far hehe, I started later than I hoped so I've only properly read (and vaguely understood/ translated) the first 2/3 of page 380 (sorry), but I have a lot of questions already.
Initially I went through the 4 pages with nothing just to get a feel for the structure. When I was translating I found it pretty hard to figure out the clauses within the sentence but I found reading it out, recording it (and playing it back - I'm more confident in my listening than reading) and scribbling down potential options helped a lot.
I was surprised by how manageable it was by the last few sentences, and I think given time I could have managed 4 pages (I will attempt to catch up by tomorrow). I was a bit confused by who was doing the action sometimes but I think the context helps with figuring that out...?
I have some specific grammar questions but my first question is about nanori - I went into this completely blind (and I'm aiming to not look up anything related to the story for the duration of the project other than what's on here) so I'm still not sure what the reading of 大沢さん's name is!
I went with Oosawa (using jisho.com #names). I feel like if I refresh the page I might find out whether this is right or not, but I want to just send one comment fresh off the reading... (are there resources on common name readings? Is it something that just comes with experience?) In a book, are there usually furigana to help with the reading?
P.S. it's an essay as always, I am unable to write short comments
P.P.S I say as always but I've really not commented much, I aspire to more in the future...
Hi Nana, you're very welcome. I'm so glad to see you're enjoying the project. It's so great that you're jumping in the deep end and giving this a shot. It's so challenging, especially because (I assume) this is your first time reading a real story in the original language.
To answer your question, 大沢 can be read as both おおざわ or おおさわ. I know that in the English translation they went with the former, but as readings, neither is more correct than the other. In the case of names, you never really know until you ask someone. (For instance, my old professor's name was 中島, but until you meet someone you're never really sure whether it's なかしま or なかじま.)
Please keep posting your questions, no matter how broad or specific. Keep going and let me know what you think! Thanks again for joining the discussion...looking forward to hearing more from you. (I like long comments, so keep them coming ;))
Yep, it's the first time haha, I really like the idea of finishing a complete story so I'm looking forward to continuing onwards!
I see I see, thank you for the reply! I see it really depends on the person - I wonder in the case of literature, if the author doesn't give a specific reading... in the original language it's possible there could be no general consensus on a character's name? Intriguing.
I was going to ask about direct and indirect speech but I think I already worked it out just now from googling.
But I'm still a bit confused by usage and meaning of には - I've read a few explanations and examples but it hasn't really clicked for me. I wonder if Bunsukeさん could help shed some light on it?
What's your stance on spoilers in the discussion? Were you hoping for plot discussion? Is it ok if I quote a short part of a sentence to ask about the grammar usage?
About different forms of verbs (I'll just quote one verb for now) -
This is pretty specific but to take one example, 向って in the first line, I've heard it used as 向かう before so I was confused by the missing か until I saw another form is 向う 【むかう】The dictionary I used didn't give any context for the alternate forms - I'm curious about how these arose?
Not necessarily for this specific example, but are there significant reasons why there are different forms, or significant times when a certain form is favoured? Or is it simply based on usage?
Great questions. Please do quote specific sentences for specific questions on grammar that you may have, including the には, and if you could please explain what it is you do not understand about it in that context. Of course, I'm more than happy to help :)
In the case of 向かう vs 向う, this is really up to the author or publisher, which they prefer. In most cases, the okurigana is standardized (although it was revised a few times after WWII). In the case of this specific verb, I would say either version is fine, except in cases where the reader would become confused as to whether they should read 向う as むかう or as むこう, but as these have very different grammatical functions, the chances of that happening are pretty slim.
When you read more prewar literature, there really is no telling where the okurigana will begin. I think to a large extent, even today, you can get away with a a lot. Although, if you're learning Japanese and you're in a classroom with a strict Japanese teacher, they will try to convince you there is only one way to write something :D
Wrote out a lot of questions on day 1's reading, if anyone could offer any advice on any of them I’d be really interested in hearing from you! I’ll post a few while I write the others up… (is what I said, but I ended up getting really into it and forgot I said this) Mostly I tried to preserve the grammatical structure rather than have it sound good in English since I want to improve at spotting grammatical patterns~
Page 380:
1. line 2 - 大沢さんは何かまぶしいものでも見るように目を組めて僕の顔を見た。 I got a bit lost in the clauses and ended up with: 大沢さんは {(何かまぶしいものでも見るように)目を組めて}僕 の顔を見た。I’m not sure which of the many translations of 組めて to go with. Is it a potential form from 組む? I feel like knowing this will help link “Oosawa-san looked at my face” and something about narrator’s “eyes hoping to see something dazzling or something”. I’m not sure about how I translated the でも as “or something”... this was a nightmare sentence to be confronted with straight off the bat.
2. line 3 - I translated お聞き as rumour, does it have the お as an honorific because Oosawa is using polite speech?
3. Curious about how the つき in 目つき (line 4) and 顔つき (line 6) came about - jisho says 付 is an alt form and it has irregular okurigana usage
4. line 9 - is 乗ってこなかった = 乗って来なかった? I got that this meant Oosawa-san didn’t hop readily on the conversation change. But more accurately in the grammar I’m unsure how that works - “participate (in the change of topic), he didn’t come”?
5. line 10 - the ているようでもあった（し）x 2 → “(he) appeared as if enduring something, (he appeared) as if wavering over something” よう → appear to, でも → or something (which I translated as “as if”), し → joining the clauses because the author’s listing two things? Am I on the right track with the usages here?
6. line 12 - why is きっかけ in kana? I assume it is 切っ掛け. Bunsukeさん mentioned it’s sometimes up to the publisher (like for standardisation across publications?) - I wonder whether authors mind much.
7. (answered already) Was curious about 暇つぶし（line 13) but just looked more carefully and it’s 暇(spare time)潰(crush)し hehe
8. Line 13 - I have no idea what’s going on with “あれこれ ととりとめもない 世間話 を している うち に” For the meaning of the whole sentence I had: “In the free time while waiting for the plane, somehow or other [ととりとめもない] making small talk among us. I assume ととりとめもない is modifying 世間話 but if someone can help dredge the kana barrage…
Page 381:
9. line 1 - 仕事をしてきた. Was confused about the ending, but is it ～てきた “have been doing”? Like “Up to then I several times had been working together [with him]”
10. line 2 - 二十年近くも --> “nearly 20 years” - what’s the も for? Rather, why is it there? Is it attaching to the 近くor another part of the sentence? I kind of vaguely get the feel of why it’s there but I’m struggling to put it into words haha
11. line 6 - which I split as 彼は言うなれば 人が好感を抱かざるをえない人間 だった。half guessing “He was, so to speak, a character people could not help but hold a good impression of” since so far narrator’s describing Oosawa-san positively, I assume something about 抱かざる negates it (making the sentence a double negative of sorts)? I’d not seen that ending before… I just looked it up, is it this N1 ざる thing? (idk whether it’s appropriate to insert a link here?)
12. line 6 - のんびりとしていて I get the として now (thanks Bunsukeさん!), but what’s this いて? Is it modifying the して?
Curious about the etymology of ぼんやり and のんびり - apparently onomatopoeia? Found a forum link on so called “ri adverbs” that I’m reading now - will report developments on this story if interesting
13. What’s the difference between 物静か and 静か? I guessed it’s intensifying the adjective but on jisho it says “Prefix, 10. really; truly Only applies to もの, See also 物珍しい”
So while I’ve half answered my question - it can apply to other adjectives - it’s not in kana in the text… is this on the publisher again?
Regarding には, I think I’ll read some more before trying to quantify what I don’t understand about it…
So I've added a mode now to reading mode and understanding mode - grammar mode, where I struggle over how to word my questions and half answer them myself before handing them in. I’m sure I could add more to my answers if I continued but I’ve already spent 100 minutes writing up (and retranslating the first 1 ⅓ pages) (and a further 30 editing) so I think it’s time to release this into the wild. Enjoy!
A bit behind on commenting but here are my thoughts on the first section...
I was pleasantly surprised at how little I had to look up in this first section compared to my previous experience reading Murakami in Japanese.
Like others, I also was stuck rereading いささかききすぎていて a few times. I'd never seen いささか before and the lack of kanji for きき in ききすぎて made it difficult to parse the verb from the unknown word before it
The part where 大沢 relates fighting in a match to being in a deep hole immediately reminded me of a very short piece by Murakami that I read during one of my classes abroad - 「夜中の汽笛について、あるいは物語の効用について」Both the way that it is written and the emotion of that section is similar to a part in the other piece.
It's never too late to comment...I'll probably keep these threads open for a while so you can always come back to them and add commentary or reflections later if you'd like.
Hadn't heard of that short piece by Murakami! Thanks for the recommendation :)
A bit off the schedule, more like too much off the schedule but can you put up with me please? I am at pg385 right now and will try to run through to day 4 as fast as I can. But my head is spinning right now. First I have to confirm the name of characters. 大沢 is Oosawa-san and 青木 is Aoki-kun right? Because I suck at names and is there even a way to improve? In pg383, 自分の肉を削らなくてはなりません、What did he mean there? I could understand literally but can you explain more about that context-wise? Also my head spinning is not because of the difficulty of the text but more of jp-jp dictionary. I get lost in unknown words which is expressed in more unknown words. Do you recommend me using jp-jp dictionary or jp-eng dictionary? I feel like jp-jp dictionary benefits me in the long run but it takes so much time.
Hi Myat, no worries! There's no rush, just keep going at your own pace. You're correct on the names (although I believe the English translator went with おおざわ instead of おおさわ, but both are correct).
In this context, the sentence you cited means something like 'to endure hardship in order to become tougher'. This is far from a literal translation but it gives you the gist.
As for the dictionaries, here's what I would do: use the J-E dictionary as your main dictionary for now and keep the J-J one within reach. When you feel that the explanation in the J-E doesn't quite suffice (this is something you'll increasingly experience as you make progress and read more) see what the J-J dictionary has to say. My guess is that you'll naturally transition into using mostly J-J dictionaries over time.
Hey everyone. Thank you, Bunsuke and Harry, for this wonderful reading opportunity. This is a purely appreciative comment !
I've read until page 387 (as I'm already on day 2 over here in France) and have been enjoying the story very much. The relatively short sentences surely help ! I've been adding every yet-unknown-to-me word to my Anki deck (17 words for day 1, 11 for day 2) with captures of the sentences where they were used for added clarity.
One suggestion : I read "猫を捨てる" by Murakami earlier this year (highly recommended, about 100 pages), which I believe would also work very well in this format.
Can't wait to continue this journey with you all !
Hi Jon, thanks for the generous comment! I'm really glad to see you're enjoying this communal project. Thanks, also for the suggestion. It'll be fun to gauge people's reactions at the end of this...hopefully everyone will want to do it again :D
Just finished reading the short story and I have to say: It was more interesting than I expected!
When I think of japanese literatures, I always envisioned that it was going to be packed with words that I've never seen in my life before, but surprisingly that wasn't the case. Not only was the theme of the story (or at least the first four pages) philosophical, it also made me think of how I've been progressing for my self- from my own studies to personal hobbies such as japanese. Although I'm still wondering how the title is related to the story, but we're only 20% there (and the ending of the 4th page is on a cliffhanger too! How cruel). Nevertheless, thank you to Bunsuke for introducing me to this!
Now for some of my remarks:
- I counted how many kanjis/phrases that I have to search for in the dictionary, and it ended with the total of exactly 50 of them. One problem I find rather frustrating are the hiragana phrases (eg. ぶるぶる or あくまで) that has no indications of kanji whatsoever. I wonder if there's a book that contains all of those kind of phrases that can help me memorize those.
- Also, to whom would you recommend the story? If an N3 student wants to read this, will you recommend it? or is the difficulty lower than my thoughts? or higher?
-I don't really understand the last part when daizawa ( or 大沢, I'm not sure how to pronounce the name) talks about what he learned from boxing. He talks that in life people will win and lose. And then he talks about how there is solitude inside of everyone and we have to try our best to go resist it. Did I get that right? or am I interpreting it wrong?
Once again, thanks for doing this Bunsuke. I really appreciate it <3
For what it's worth, I wouldn't recommend this to a student until N2, unless the N3 student has a reallystrong grasp of Kanji - as looking up kanji and words would surely take a long time. But I could be wrong - some parts seem pretty accessible.
As for the title (Silence), and although I haven't read through the whole thing yet, isn't the author referring to the initial silence observed by Ôzawasan (I believe that's how you pronounce 大沢) after the narrator asks him about the time he hit someone ?
Hi Harry, great to read that you're enjoying the project. It's really fun to see how everyone is working together and helping each other out. Hopefully the enthusiasm will only grow throughout the week.
As for your questions: there is such a thing as a 文型辞典 which explains certain grammatical patterns and phrases, but the words you're referring to won't be in there. For these you'll have to stick to a regular dictionary I'm afraid.
I tend to resist thinking in levels of standardized testing. Of course, if you someone has trouble getting through n5, I wouldn't recommend diving into literary Japanese. But having said that, I think when you get above n3 you should just give it a shot. I think having a community like this one helps. You can tell that even if people are reaching slightly beyond their level, the fact that we're reading it together keeps everyone going.
Really curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the next section today :)
Hi! Got through the first four pages yesterday, skipping a few words to keep the lecture smooth. I have two questions.
First, why is he using 彼は so much? I don't know if that's something particular to Murakami, or if its something about this story, but I didn't think it was necessary and it definitely felt a bit unnatural (not like I should be telling Murakami what is natural Japanese and what isn't...)
Second, in more literary terms, what do you think makes Murakami a good writer, and what positive aspects could be highlighted about this story in particular? Before studying Japanese I wasn't very interested in literature, and I feel like I still struggle finding interest for it.
Hi RPD, those are great questions. Yes, the incessant use of と彼は言った is very Murakami, and it's great that you're picking up on these stylistic elements so early in the game. This repetitiveness is one of the things I dislike about Murakami's style. I suppose what most people like about his writing is the way he frames his analogies. They are other-worldly, sometime Kafkaesque in a sense. To be honest, I'm not such a huge fan of Murakami, and instead like to read Tanizaki, Furui Yoshikichi, and Tamura Toshiko. However, these are much more difficult than Murakami and so I felt Murakami would be a nice way to kick things off. I think it takes some time and a lot of variety in reading to learn what really speaks to you. Perhaps, after a while, you're conclusion will be that you do not like Murakami.
Since there's quite a variety in literature, I think it's just a matter of exploring topics that interest you. I can't speak for this story, but the first work I read by Murakami was "Kafka on the Shore" (in English), and it was definitely a little different.
Thanks! There's a lot of variety, definitely. Nowadays I usually focus on how much I can understand the text, how interesting I find the story and how interesting I find their way of constructing phrases (to the degree to which I can understand their Japanese, ofc).
I never read Murakami in English. My native language is Spanish, and one of the books that I enjoyed the most was "One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It's definitely a long lecture, but I loved his usage of the language. I don't know how good the English translation of that work may be.
I'm asking about what people like about Murakami so I can little by little become more appreciative of literature. In the end, I suspect that it's just a sensibility that is gained with time, so I just have to stick with it and keep reading.
I was wondering the same thing earlier today. I felt a little lost when apparently so many people already read his works. It's just unfortunate that I still can't feel his literary quirks given that I still struggle to understand the text, so it feels like I'm missing out on the more interesting details
Bunsuke-san, Thank you so much for setting up this reading project. I have been trying many different ways to get more motivated to read, so this is great!
I have read some literature before (working my way through this book https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/432143.Breaking_Into_Japanese_Literature), but this piece is the longest text I have read so far, and with almost no background/furigana/vocabulary notes. I was happy to see that I knew about 95% of the kanji, but was taken aback by how little I understood, I guess because of my poor grammar.
I was worried that I would get side-tracked looking up vocab and would not get through the four pages, so I tried sounding it out as I read and trying to follow as I would if I was overhearing a conversation. All in all it still took me about an hour to get through. Today, I plan to look up the vocab I didn't get, and re-read it before the next 4 pages.
Hi Kevin, great to hear you're enjoying the project! It sounds like your approach to this is solid. Reading aloud always helps with comprehension. Feeling the rhythm of the sentences is so important when you're internalizing the language. Hope to hear from you again on day 2 :)
I've read some of Murakami's work before but in English. I've always wanted to read his work in the original Japanese it was written in so this is an amazing opportunity, thank you Bunsuke!
It took me quite awhile to work through the text (~ 2 hours) but I'm actually surprised at how much vocabulary and grammar I recognized. I took note of 19 vocab words that had kanji that I couldn't quite recall the reading/meaning for to add to my Anki deck.
There were a few lines that I couldn't quite comprehend at the end of pg 381, starting with 普通の人間はが誰かを殴ったって and ending with 等しい行為ですからね. I had trouble understanding 打ちどころが悪ければ変なことになっちゃうんです and これはただじゃすみません in particular.
The story is really interesting and the topic of boxing made me think of a Hemingway short story that I read! Looking forward to reading more with you all!
Thank you all for sharing your progress! I only made it through the first page and felt bad for being so slow. Looking up all the kanji anf thinking about the grammar takes so much time. Thought about giving up to read further and join the next reading project (whenever that may be). But now I’m motivated again! :)
Hi Valerie, you're doing great! I remember reading my very first page (also Murakami) and it took me 6 hours, and I had to look up every word. So take it slow, don't rush. You're already making great strides. The fact that it takes time means that you're doing it right and that you're really actively engaging with the text. You should be proud, you're actually reading a story in Japanese, how cool is that!!! Hope to hear again from you tomorrow :D
I'm in a similar boat, Valerie. It took me forever to read through the first page because I need to look up almost every term, even when I'm skipping things to avoid perfection. It tuckered me out pretty fast. But we're both getting through it, and I've already done a lot more reading than I usually do. I hope you keep at it!
Yes, that’s true. Even the few paragraphs are more than I’d have read on any other day. We can do it! keep me posted about your progress. がんばってください！
Hi Bookie, thanks for commenting! You're doing great :) if there's anything specific you need help with you know where to find us ;)
よろしくお願いします Valerieさん! Let's keep doing our best together! :)
Nanaさん、ありがとう。がんばってくださいね。:)
Thanks a lot Bunsuke for setting up the thread! It’s great to see more people joining in! So far I’ve gone through today’s scheduled pages and, as some other readers have mentioned, I find it very useful sometimes to read “structure focus” -that is, just identifying the grammar patterns and the feel of the sentences before actually re-reading with the vocab. I remember reading that in an online blog.
Kanji search is a little bit less excruciating with the Jisho radical search function, but that’s by far the most time-consuming thing, so maybe for people focusing more on grammar this option could be useful. Nevertheless, I’m planning to re- read tomorrow with the vocab I still have missing.
Regarding には, which I’ve seen some people are struggling with, I really recommend Imabi’s explanation. Maybe most of you already know it, but just in case, to put it simply, it’s a free grammar website which teaches Japanese from the basics to very advances level. What people usually don’t like about it is that it’s not a “friendly explanation” site. That is, it’s very very detailed and quite linguistic-oriented. That being said, for me it’s the best website in order to grasp things fully, because it leaves nothing unexplained, even the slightest of nuances. In fact, I’m using it as my main manual. Here’s the link to the site (grammar points are classified according to level: check those for “The Particle に” (I-II, etc.)
https://www.imabi.net/tableofcontents.htm
Hi Daniel, thanks for your contribution. The manual you mentioned seems very thorough so I think a lot of people here will benefit from it.
Great approach on tackling the text as well. Let me know what tactics you felt worked best for you in the end.
If anyone is interested, I processed the pdf with OCR (and rotated the pages that were flipped) and while not perfect, most kanji can then be copied and pasted into jisho, for example. Much simpler than trying to find the kanji by radical or drawing...
That sounds life-saving!! Many thanks for the info!
Here is the link. For copyright issues, I will only leave it on for a few days. Please let me know of any issues.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vhd-8oH0aYLVWJiGFsKQfBKph7EXSCmI/view?usp=sharing
Sorry for the late reply! I’ve been swamped by work. Many many thanks!!
Thank you for the link! It's nice to see an organised table of contents haha, looks like it would be useful for reference!
This really blew up! Some very interesting comments. Just finished yesterday's on with today's. Too many words to write in detail about em all:
🕯️ちらちら＋😤イライラ =
⚡💥ぎらっと
•
鐘が鳴る当時に鐘楼にいたから鐘のボンボンでぼんやりとしちゃった
⏰🔔ボンボン😵ぼんやり
•
曇りの【曇】の音読みはドン:
どんより = from Don Cloud🌥️🎩
overcast, gray, leaden, dull...
•
しゃばる is another しゃべる, right?
•
there's something I 'gotta' do... 'again', something I 'gotta' do... I'm confused…
ごった返す
•
In Japan you don't just get knee-deep into, you get 没頭 into
•
おもむろに / 徐に is very confusing:
suddenly but slowly. Abruptly but gently. ☯️🙄…🏜️🐛🏜️🛡️⚔️🛡️…
大沢、大澤。眩しい。目つき。ぎらっと、ぎらぎら。ちらちら、いらいら。放つ。生々しい。引っ込め。大して、たいして、対して。余計。ぼんやり。暇潰し。あれこれと取り留め。世間話。対向試合。物静か。しゃばらない、喋る。悪魔で。吊り上げる。悪口。抱かざるをえない。風貌だって。いかにも温厚。程遠い。地点で結びついた。見当2。機動隊、動機。どう考えても。どんより。ごった返す。些か、些っと(も)。些細。ただじゃすみません。故意に凶器を。行為。腹を立てる。どこにでもある。東洋。二度輩出。気が進まない。繰り広げる。年上。きゅっと。没頭。一言で。おもむろに、徐に
Yes, very cool to see everyone jump in like this!! Thanks for your contribution Jose!
A bit late but よろしくauberonさん, love the use of emojis and mnemonics! Will take note in case I decide to switch to digital ✨
As I expected, it was hard, really, really hard, as I expected hahahaha. I ended up being able to only read 2 of the pages before my head started to ache a little and I realized I had to take a break. I will still try to compensate later, maybe continue reading, maybe trying something else to keep it a fresh experience.
What I noticed is that the big obstacle is the number of kanjis that I simply don't know yet. I went after each one of them manually, but that took a big chunk of the time I spent on the book up until now, but I guess there's no helping it.
What I'm worried about is that I'll probably soon forget about them. I'm thinking about keeping a notebook by my side and each new word would be written in there for a quick check later and hopefully writing it myself will help me remember it. I wonder if the idea is worth the time it will take?
As for what I read so far, the story is pretty nice and I'm happy that even though I got a little frustrated, I was able to at least get an idea of what was going on in a more general sense (I cheated a little and checked afterwards the english version up until where I stopped just to make sure :p).
In general, I'm proud of what I was able to do, considering everything; hope I can get back to it soon so I won't be left in the dust.
Hi Matt, it's so great that you got as far as two pages, just keep going, you'll get there! Just give it time. I think that your eyes and brain will start to adjust as you keep reading and you'll see improvement even by the end of this intensive week.
I realize looking everything up manually is a pain, but in my book, it's the only way to go. What I used to do is keep a list of words/kanji that I didn't know, all written by hand. It was not fun! BUT it really worked wonders after some time. I never used the list to repeat what I had learned. Rather, the act of writing down the words, spending time with the thing you're struggling with to remember, that process is incredibly important. The worst thing is that you don't feel you're improving while you're doing it. But if you stick with it I promise you'll notice the difference over time.
Really proud of you too, keep going, and keep posting your questions here! Looking forward to hearing more from you soon.
よろしくお願いします Mattさん, hope you don't mind a reply :3 Yeah no kidding... when I went through to begin with I was highlighting everything I could pronounce (including all the hiragana after unknown kanji, of which there were many...) to make it look a bit more friendly (and get an idea of how far off I was) - but when actually translating sentence by sentence it was super slow since I had to look up everything unfamiliar. Kanji I've seen for the first time while reading something with a plot sticks better though, so that's something I guess...?
I used a phone app to handwrite the kanji then once I worked out the reading I would use online dictionaries since there's usually more context. I wonder if there's a more streamlined approach... actually I feel spoiled by Bunsukeさん's carefully curated newsletters now, it saves so much time...
I tried a couple different methods of recording new stuff (annotating on the printout, keeping a list), but in the end I ended up copying out the sentences to figure out sentence structure and had everything (reading, meaning, attempted translation) on the same page. This was really time consuming though (I don't mind since I like writing by hand haha) - hopefully what I wrote will stick in my head for next time I see it in context...
(Took Bunsukeさん's tip from last time (very very long ago now... I have been procrastinating a lot) of separating "reading time" (reading aloud the rhythm of the sentence, skipping stuff I can't pronounce) from "translating time" (trying to understand the meaning of the sentence, using external resources))
I think one of my goals this project is to keep going while avoiding burnout (not sure what this means for the volume I'll get through!) Sorry if this is very forward of me but it's nice to be reading together and to hear everyone's experiences :)
Great that you're getting in touch with each other! This is actually what I had hoped would happen. Reading together is so much more enjoying than having the feeling that you're doing it all alone.
And slow is good! Feeling the agony of having to look everything up means that you're actually engaging with the material. Trust me, I know it sucks at times, but this is really the only way to get through it. No automatically generated vocab lists, no flashy flashcards. Just wrestling with the text, looking things up, and enjoying the process without shortcuts. You're doing great, so keep going!
ooh yeah I get what you mean, it's been a heck of a long time and I'm still trying to find the best way to get it all in my head. The frustration that comes from time to time is what makes me procrastinate the most, until eventually I feel like giving another go. July has been by far the month I pushed myself the most since I started, I wonder how long I can hold on like this.
I'm still expecting at least another 2 or 3 years before I start to feel confident by myself, but hey now, having a training buddy like you to connect and struggle with is already wonderful ya know :D
Hehe awesome, I've listened to Japanese music for years but only in the past few really tried to get into the language. Endurance is key! Hope to check in with you tomorrow as well to see how it goes! I wonder, will you try to catch up by finishing all of today's assigned 4 pages, as well as tomorrow's, by tomorrow's discussion time? I wonder the same for me...
hmm now that is the question. I could replace the book I read before going to sleep tonight (or at least for this week) with this one instead, but I really don't know. I guess I will at least try to catch up the last 2 pages and read the rest tomorrow (I hope). Considering I'll try taking some notes, it will probably take even longer than before.
If I had an impossible amount of confidence, I would say to you that I was going to read the 2 pages from today plus the 4 from tomorrow all at once, but I know that's a no-no from me XD
Here hoping to update with you tomorrow too. No throwing in the towel for any of us now.
Haha you're right, we're in it together now :D
Before anything else, I just wanted to say that I think this was a great idea! I was a bit busy and only got through two pages yesterday, so I'm trying to catch up today. However, so far I'm wondering about this one sentence: それはボクシングを始めるときにいやっていうくらい叩きこまれるんです。I think I'm specifically having trouble with the っていうくらい part. Is he saying that he was told not to do it (or hated it) so much that they had to drill it into him to hit someone? Thanks in advance.
I believe it means it was drilled into him so much to the extent of him feeling annoyed
I can see that, thanks.
(よろしくお願いしますニックさん, sorry I can't help with your question but let's do our best to catch up together!)
Correct! It basically says that when you start boxing they drill it in you that you must not fight anyone outside the ring, and they repeat that to the extent that it is annoying/exhausting etc.
Hello, I’m excited to be reading along with you all! I decided on this method of reading - I’m annotating the PDF with the kanji readings (and if necessary the English translation of individual words) for one page, then reading through it again a couple of times to see if understand the story. I surprised myself by finding it not too difficult, and so far there’s not too many new words or kanji for me! I guess I’ve been working towards this point for a while now, but this is the first adult native level short story I’ve attempted. I’m not a really detail-oriented person and grammar is not my strong point, but I’m happy if I can understand what is happening in the story, and so far so good. I’ll copy out new kanji by hand too, as suggested, and see how that goes for retention, and maybe remove my annotations later if I think I can read without them… I love how it’s recognisably Murakami, even in Japanese. I’m also enjoying reading everyone’s comments!
よろしくお願いします Reneeさん, great to hear from you! I hope someday I'll be able to recognise particular authors' quirks in Japanese as well :)
Hey Renee - I really loved this point you make: that we can see it's Murakami. Isn't it funny: he actually wrote all of this in Japanese, but we've come to know his style in translation. It's fresh for us to see his actual (original) style! I suppose that's credit to the translators for somehow letting that come through...
Hi Renee, wow it's great to hear things are going smoothly! How cool is it that you're reading an actual story, even though (if I understand correctly) this is your first attempt at it. Keep us up to date which method of reading/annotating worked best for you in the end. Hope to hear from you tomorrow :)
Up until now I’ve been reading all kinds of texts for the JLPTN3 and 2, and I’m in my final semester at uni with a Japanese major. I’ve also been reading lots of books aimed at Japanese elementary school kids, and Satori Reader. But yes, first short story!
Thanks Bunsuke!
I'm enjoying this little project as I'm quite free this week :D. I'm slowly working by rewriting the story onto a word document (so I know what the readings of the kanji are) then breaking bits down that are new or I don't feel I really understand. I might stop rewriting it, but it's partly so it's easier to read through for me if I'm gonna spend some time looking at it~
This feels like a really good level for me to be honest, I can read through most of the kanji (of course not all), but the grammar/meaning aspect is tough after previously practicing with mostly children's books! It took me about 30 minutes per page to rewrite it out!
One of my first questions was about using kanji in this way:
訊ねる instead of 尋ねる
肯く instead of 頷く
When I search 訊ねる on jisho.org, I see 尋ねる as the main entry and 訊ねる is listed as an "other form".
Is there any enlightenment you can give about such "other forms"? Are there any fairly common usages you can think of? Is there a meaning difference? Is the context what matters?
Another question would be any advice when trying to decipher bunches of hiragana missing kanji, for example the following:
「レストランの暖房はいささかききすぎて。。。」 which I'm guessing is the same as -> 「レストランの暖房はいささか効きすぎて。。。」
Is it just practice and getting used to it? Because my brain read "いささかきき" (??? wat) followed by "すぎて" (too much), then just melted slightly.
I might have some grammar questions tomorrow if that's ok, I still haven't finished properly digging into this section yet :p
Hi Peter, thanks so much for you're comment. I'm glad to see you're enjoying the project! 30 minutes per page is great, especially as you said you have some time. Two hours a day on this won't drive you mad, although it might prove challenging at some points.
As for the "other forms", I think this is why reading literature is so great. There are so many other forms that are regularly used in literature, but which you never see mentioned in the standard textbooks. 訊ねる is perhaps even more common than 尋ねる in literature, but you can use the same kanji to write 訊く instead of 聞く. And indeed, as you mentioned 肯く as well as 頷く. This means you have to loosen up your brain to the meanings of certain kanji to infer their reading. When you know the word 肯定する, then うなずく for the first kanji becomes a more logical reading. One example that you will see much less frequent is はじめる with the kanji 首, especially in the context of ～を首め (to begin with...). This is an extreme example that you almost never encounter in actual postwar text, but once you link the two together, you get a deeper understanding of the kanji itself. This just takes time, and there are countless other examples. 足音 can also be written as 跫音 etc. The more literature you read, the more you'll get used to this.
Same goes for いささかききすぎて, which technically would become 聊か効きすぎて or 些か効きすぎて. Over time, your brain will just automatically split these words as it anticipates them in a certain context.
よろしくお願いします Peterさん!
Hehe I see we're both curious about these mysterious "other forms"... :3
The stuff you said about the hiragana barrage was too relatable I had to reply www
You all are acing me! I got through the first page and got bogged down on looking up characters and phrases and re-reading. But I figure: that's the way it is. Just keep going and share.
So: Maybe my dictionary is limited but what is ぎらっとした? A Japanese friend of mine suggested it's a darker version of きら but I wonder if anyone else ran into this little odd item.
(Nevermind ;))... https://jisho.org/search/ぎらっ
Hi Jim, glad you were able to find it in the end. Searching for ぎらぎら will also get you there. I think your friend is right, as a general rule, when you add the so-called 濁点 to an onomatopoeia, expression has an overall more negative or gloomy connotation.
よろしくお願いいたします Jimさん!
I looked that one up too! Once I did I was surprised because I felt I should have known it from Ado's song ギラギラ... I guess I wasn't expecting it to crop up here.
I'm curious why your friend thought it was a darker version? Darker like less dazzling, or in a horror story way?
I was a bit confused by the した on the end of ぎらっとした though, I'd written it down to ask about later haha. Is it part of the adverb? The other part where I didn't understand the した was ちょおとした... which... now looking back on it, combined with previous knowledge of 大した... seems like it's for adverbs huh...
Hi Nana. Yeah, I'm not sure why my friend characterized it as dark. My guess is she was referring to the whole sentence and not just this part.
Great question aboutとする. I've seen it but never really understood it exactly. So I dove into Seiichi Makino's Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar, which describes this as "to look" or "to feel" or "to have a sensory or psychological experience" (DIJG 523). One of his examples: 姉は足がすらっとする。("My older sister has slender legs.")なるほど。
Great question! とする is usually added to make it an adjective: きらきらとした目. You can also end the sentence with it: 彼女の目はきらきらとしていた. You cannot say 彼女の目はきらきらだった. If you want to make an adverb, simply use と: 彼女の目はきらきらと光っていた。
the と actually carries some meaning. I lost the page that explained it (it was some kokugo website in japanese) but basically, an onomatopeia with と is one that has the nuance of intention. For example:
(after getting drunk) ふらふらと歩いている。
(a patient in a hospital) ふらふら歩いている。
I found this insight particularly helpful, because its usually said that whether an adverb has と or not is something to be memorized, but it actually isnt. Similar to the difference between な and の adjectives, which is usually memorized but actually carries meaning (see the great tofugu post about it in case that someone doesnt know what Im talking about!)
Hi RPD, this is a really interesting topic. For me, either version can been used in either situation. I'll ask around two. A friend of mine is a linguist, and in my mind this is the stuff he thinks about all day long (hahah probably not true...) but I'll try to get his opinion. Really fascinating stuff when you get to the nitty gritty!
よろしくRPDさん, that's so interesting! Tofugu has a lot of great articles and I hadn't got to that one yet, so thanks :3
Thank you both for your replies! I think I did mean adjective and not adverb before oops... makes a lot more sense now :) inordinately proud that I can read your example sentences easily hehe, I wouldn't have been able to last year
Excitingly I found an example in the very next sentence I tried... ぼにゃりと…眺めていた。Yay!
Hi Bunsuke! First of all thank you for doing this project! It's been very immersive so far hehe, I started later than I hoped so I've only properly read (and vaguely understood/ translated) the first 2/3 of page 380 (sorry), but I have a lot of questions already.
Initially I went through the 4 pages with nothing just to get a feel for the structure. When I was translating I found it pretty hard to figure out the clauses within the sentence but I found reading it out, recording it (and playing it back - I'm more confident in my listening than reading) and scribbling down potential options helped a lot.
I was surprised by how manageable it was by the last few sentences, and I think given time I could have managed 4 pages (I will attempt to catch up by tomorrow). I was a bit confused by who was doing the action sometimes but I think the context helps with figuring that out...?
I have some specific grammar questions but my first question is about nanori - I went into this completely blind (and I'm aiming to not look up anything related to the story for the duration of the project other than what's on here) so I'm still not sure what the reading of 大沢さん's name is!
I went with Oosawa (using jisho.com #names). I feel like if I refresh the page I might find out whether this is right or not, but I want to just send one comment fresh off the reading... (are there resources on common name readings? Is it something that just comes with experience?) In a book, are there usually furigana to help with the reading?
P.S. it's an essay as always, I am unable to write short comments
P.P.S I say as always but I've really not commented much, I aspire to more in the future...
Hi Nana, you're very welcome. I'm so glad to see you're enjoying the project. It's so great that you're jumping in the deep end and giving this a shot. It's so challenging, especially because (I assume) this is your first time reading a real story in the original language.
To answer your question, 大沢 can be read as both おおざわ or おおさわ. I know that in the English translation they went with the former, but as readings, neither is more correct than the other. In the case of names, you never really know until you ask someone. (For instance, my old professor's name was 中島, but until you meet someone you're never really sure whether it's なかしま or なかじま.)
Please keep posting your questions, no matter how broad or specific. Keep going and let me know what you think! Thanks again for joining the discussion...looking forward to hearing more from you. (I like long comments, so keep them coming ;))
Yep, it's the first time haha, I really like the idea of finishing a complete story so I'm looking forward to continuing onwards!
I see I see, thank you for the reply! I see it really depends on the person - I wonder in the case of literature, if the author doesn't give a specific reading... in the original language it's possible there could be no general consensus on a character's name? Intriguing.
I was going to ask about direct and indirect speech but I think I already worked it out just now from googling.
But I'm still a bit confused by usage and meaning of には - I've read a few explanations and examples but it hasn't really clicked for me. I wonder if Bunsukeさん could help shed some light on it?
What's your stance on spoilers in the discussion? Were you hoping for plot discussion? Is it ok if I quote a short part of a sentence to ask about the grammar usage?
About different forms of verbs (I'll just quote one verb for now) -
This is pretty specific but to take one example, 向って in the first line, I've heard it used as 向かう before so I was confused by the missing か until I saw another form is 向う 【むかう】The dictionary I used didn't give any context for the alternate forms - I'm curious about how these arose?
Not necessarily for this specific example, but are there significant reasons why there are different forms, or significant times when a certain form is favoured? Or is it simply based on usage?
Great questions. Please do quote specific sentences for specific questions on grammar that you may have, including the には, and if you could please explain what it is you do not understand about it in that context. Of course, I'm more than happy to help :)
In the case of 向かう vs 向う, this is really up to the author or publisher, which they prefer. In most cases, the okurigana is standardized (although it was revised a few times after WWII). In the case of this specific verb, I would say either version is fine, except in cases where the reader would become confused as to whether they should read 向う as むかう or as むこう, but as these have very different grammatical functions, the chances of that happening are pretty slim.
When you read more prewar literature, there really is no telling where the okurigana will begin. I think to a large extent, even today, you can get away with a a lot. Although, if you're learning Japanese and you're in a classroom with a strict Japanese teacher, they will try to convince you there is only one way to write something :D
Great, I will get back to you tomorrow on the specifics after reading (and googling) a bit more! Thank you for your reply!
Great, I'll be here!
Wrote out a lot of questions on day 1's reading, if anyone could offer any advice on any of them I’d be really interested in hearing from you! I’ll post a few while I write the others up… (is what I said, but I ended up getting really into it and forgot I said this) Mostly I tried to preserve the grammatical structure rather than have it sound good in English since I want to improve at spotting grammatical patterns~
Page 380:
1. line 2 - 大沢さんは何かまぶしいものでも見るように目を組めて僕の顔を見た。 I got a bit lost in the clauses and ended up with: 大沢さんは {(何かまぶしいものでも見るように)目を組めて}僕 の顔を見た。I’m not sure which of the many translations of 組めて to go with. Is it a potential form from 組む? I feel like knowing this will help link “Oosawa-san looked at my face” and something about narrator’s “eyes hoping to see something dazzling or something”. I’m not sure about how I translated the でも as “or something”... this was a nightmare sentence to be confronted with straight off the bat.
2. line 3 - I translated お聞き as rumour, does it have the お as an honorific because Oosawa is using polite speech?
3. Curious about how the つき in 目つき (line 4) and 顔つき (line 6) came about - jisho says 付 is an alt form and it has irregular okurigana usage
4. line 9 - is 乗ってこなかった = 乗って来なかった? I got that this meant Oosawa-san didn’t hop readily on the conversation change. But more accurately in the grammar I’m unsure how that works - “participate (in the change of topic), he didn’t come”?
5. line 10 - the ているようでもあった（し）x 2 → “(he) appeared as if enduring something, (he appeared) as if wavering over something” よう → appear to, でも → or something (which I translated as “as if”), し → joining the clauses because the author’s listing two things? Am I on the right track with the usages here?
6. line 12 - why is きっかけ in kana? I assume it is 切っ掛け. Bunsukeさん mentioned it’s sometimes up to the publisher (like for standardisation across publications?) - I wonder whether authors mind much.
7. (answered already) Was curious about 暇つぶし（line 13) but just looked more carefully and it’s 暇(spare time)潰(crush)し hehe
8. Line 13 - I have no idea what’s going on with “あれこれ ととりとめもない 世間話 を している うち に” For the meaning of the whole sentence I had: “In the free time while waiting for the plane, somehow or other [ととりとめもない] making small talk among us. I assume ととりとめもない is modifying 世間話 but if someone can help dredge the kana barrage…
Page 381:
9. line 1 - 仕事をしてきた. Was confused about the ending, but is it ～てきた “have been doing”? Like “Up to then I several times had been working together [with him]”
10. line 2 - 二十年近くも --> “nearly 20 years” - what’s the も for? Rather, why is it there? Is it attaching to the 近くor another part of the sentence? I kind of vaguely get the feel of why it’s there but I’m struggling to put it into words haha
11. line 6 - which I split as 彼は言うなれば 人が好感を抱かざるをえない人間 だった。half guessing “He was, so to speak, a character people could not help but hold a good impression of” since so far narrator’s describing Oosawa-san positively, I assume something about 抱かざる negates it (making the sentence a double negative of sorts)? I’d not seen that ending before… I just looked it up, is it this N1 ざる thing? (idk whether it’s appropriate to insert a link here?)
12. line 6 - のんびりとしていて I get the として now (thanks Bunsukeさん!), but what’s this いて? Is it modifying the して?
Curious about the etymology of ぼんやり and のんびり - apparently onomatopoeia? Found a forum link on so called “ri adverbs” that I’m reading now - will report developments on this story if interesting
13. What’s the difference between 物静か and 静か? I guessed it’s intensifying the adjective but on jisho it says “Prefix, 10. really; truly Only applies to もの, See also 物珍しい”
So while I’ve half answered my question - it can apply to other adjectives - it’s not in kana in the text… is this on the publisher again?
Regarding には, I think I’ll read some more before trying to quantify what I don’t understand about it…
So I've added a mode now to reading mode and understanding mode - grammar mode, where I struggle over how to word my questions and half answer them myself before handing them in. I’m sure I could add more to my answers if I continued but I’ve already spent 100 minutes writing up (and retranslating the first 1 ⅓ pages) (and a further 30 editing) so I think it’s time to release this into the wild. Enjoy!
A bit behind on commenting but here are my thoughts on the first section...
I was pleasantly surprised at how little I had to look up in this first section compared to my previous experience reading Murakami in Japanese.
Like others, I also was stuck rereading いささかききすぎていて a few times. I'd never seen いささか before and the lack of kanji for きき in ききすぎて made it difficult to parse the verb from the unknown word before it
The part where 大沢 relates fighting in a match to being in a deep hole immediately reminded me of a very short piece by Murakami that I read during one of my classes abroad - 「夜中の汽笛について、あるいは物語の効用について」Both the way that it is written and the emotion of that section is similar to a part in the other piece.
Looking forward to the next sections...
It's never too late to comment...I'll probably keep these threads open for a while so you can always come back to them and add commentary or reflections later if you'd like.
Hadn't heard of that short piece by Murakami! Thanks for the recommendation :)
A bit off the schedule, more like too much off the schedule but can you put up with me please? I am at pg385 right now and will try to run through to day 4 as fast as I can. But my head is spinning right now. First I have to confirm the name of characters. 大沢 is Oosawa-san and 青木 is Aoki-kun right? Because I suck at names and is there even a way to improve? In pg383, 自分の肉を削らなくてはなりません、What did he mean there? I could understand literally but can you explain more about that context-wise? Also my head spinning is not because of the difficulty of the text but more of jp-jp dictionary. I get lost in unknown words which is expressed in more unknown words. Do you recommend me using jp-jp dictionary or jp-eng dictionary? I feel like jp-jp dictionary benefits me in the long run but it takes so much time.
Hi Myat, no worries! There's no rush, just keep going at your own pace. You're correct on the names (although I believe the English translator went with おおざわ instead of おおさわ, but both are correct).
In this context, the sentence you cited means something like 'to endure hardship in order to become tougher'. This is far from a literal translation but it gives you the gist.
As for the dictionaries, here's what I would do: use the J-E dictionary as your main dictionary for now and keep the J-J one within reach. When you feel that the explanation in the J-E doesn't quite suffice (this is something you'll increasingly experience as you make progress and read more) see what the J-J dictionary has to say. My guess is that you'll naturally transition into using mostly J-J dictionaries over time.
Hey everyone. Thank you, Bunsuke and Harry, for this wonderful reading opportunity. This is a purely appreciative comment !
I've read until page 387 (as I'm already on day 2 over here in France) and have been enjoying the story very much. The relatively short sentences surely help ! I've been adding every yet-unknown-to-me word to my Anki deck (17 words for day 1, 11 for day 2) with captures of the sentences where they were used for added clarity.
One suggestion : I read "猫を捨てる" by Murakami earlier this year (highly recommended, about 100 pages), which I believe would also work very well in this format.
Can't wait to continue this journey with you all !
Jon
Hi Jon, thanks for the generous comment! I'm really glad to see you're enjoying this communal project. Thanks, also for the suggestion. It'll be fun to gauge people's reactions at the end of this...hopefully everyone will want to do it again :D
Just finished reading the short story and I have to say: It was more interesting than I expected!
When I think of japanese literatures, I always envisioned that it was going to be packed with words that I've never seen in my life before, but surprisingly that wasn't the case. Not only was the theme of the story (or at least the first four pages) philosophical, it also made me think of how I've been progressing for my self- from my own studies to personal hobbies such as japanese. Although I'm still wondering how the title is related to the story, but we're only 20% there (and the ending of the 4th page is on a cliffhanger too! How cruel). Nevertheless, thank you to Bunsuke for introducing me to this!
Now for some of my remarks:
- I counted how many kanjis/phrases that I have to search for in the dictionary, and it ended with the total of exactly 50 of them. One problem I find rather frustrating are the hiragana phrases (eg. ぶるぶる or あくまで) that has no indications of kanji whatsoever. I wonder if there's a book that contains all of those kind of phrases that can help me memorize those.
- Also, to whom would you recommend the story? If an N3 student wants to read this, will you recommend it? or is the difficulty lower than my thoughts? or higher?
-I don't really understand the last part when daizawa ( or 大沢, I'm not sure how to pronounce the name) talks about what he learned from boxing. He talks that in life people will win and lose. And then he talks about how there is solitude inside of everyone and we have to try our best to go resist it. Did I get that right? or am I interpreting it wrong?
Once again, thanks for doing this Bunsuke. I really appreciate it <3
For what it's worth, I wouldn't recommend this to a student until N2, unless the N3 student has a reallystrong grasp of Kanji - as looking up kanji and words would surely take a long time. But I could be wrong - some parts seem pretty accessible.
As for the title (Silence), and although I haven't read through the whole thing yet, isn't the author referring to the initial silence observed by Ôzawasan (I believe that's how you pronounce 大沢) after the narrator asks him about the time he hit someone ?
Hi Jon! Silence will turn out to be a binding theme in this short story...you'll see at the end ;)
Hi Harry, great to read that you're enjoying the project. It's really fun to see how everyone is working together and helping each other out. Hopefully the enthusiasm will only grow throughout the week.
As for your questions: there is such a thing as a 文型辞典 which explains certain grammatical patterns and phrases, but the words you're referring to won't be in there. For these you'll have to stick to a regular dictionary I'm afraid.
I tend to resist thinking in levels of standardized testing. Of course, if you someone has trouble getting through n5, I wouldn't recommend diving into literary Japanese. But having said that, I think when you get above n3 you should just give it a shot. I think having a community like this one helps. You can tell that even if people are reaching slightly beyond their level, the fact that we're reading it together keeps everyone going.
Really curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the next section today :)
Hi! Got through the first four pages yesterday, skipping a few words to keep the lecture smooth. I have two questions.
First, why is he using 彼は so much? I don't know if that's something particular to Murakami, or if its something about this story, but I didn't think it was necessary and it definitely felt a bit unnatural (not like I should be telling Murakami what is natural Japanese and what isn't...)
Second, in more literary terms, what do you think makes Murakami a good writer, and what positive aspects could be highlighted about this story in particular? Before studying Japanese I wasn't very interested in literature, and I feel like I still struggle finding interest for it.
Hi RPD, those are great questions. Yes, the incessant use of と彼は言った is very Murakami, and it's great that you're picking up on these stylistic elements so early in the game. This repetitiveness is one of the things I dislike about Murakami's style. I suppose what most people like about his writing is the way he frames his analogies. They are other-worldly, sometime Kafkaesque in a sense. To be honest, I'm not such a huge fan of Murakami, and instead like to read Tanizaki, Furui Yoshikichi, and Tamura Toshiko. However, these are much more difficult than Murakami and so I felt Murakami would be a nice way to kick things off. I think it takes some time and a lot of variety in reading to learn what really speaks to you. Perhaps, after a while, you're conclusion will be that you do not like Murakami.
Since there's quite a variety in literature, I think it's just a matter of exploring topics that interest you. I can't speak for this story, but the first work I read by Murakami was "Kafka on the Shore" (in English), and it was definitely a little different.
Thanks! There's a lot of variety, definitely. Nowadays I usually focus on how much I can understand the text, how interesting I find the story and how interesting I find their way of constructing phrases (to the degree to which I can understand their Japanese, ofc).
I never read Murakami in English. My native language is Spanish, and one of the books that I enjoyed the most was "One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It's definitely a long lecture, but I loved his usage of the language. I don't know how good the English translation of that work may be.
I'm asking about what people like about Murakami so I can little by little become more appreciative of literature. In the end, I suspect that it's just a sensibility that is gained with time, so I just have to stick with it and keep reading.
I was wondering the same thing earlier today. I felt a little lost when apparently so many people already read his works. It's just unfortunate that I still can't feel his literary quirks given that I still struggle to understand the text, so it feels like I'm missing out on the more interesting details
You're not alone :) I've only read the one book and am still trying to work through this behemoth (so many unknown words and terms!).
Bunsuke-san, Thank you so much for setting up this reading project. I have been trying many different ways to get more motivated to read, so this is great!
I have read some literature before (working my way through this book https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/432143.Breaking_Into_Japanese_Literature), but this piece is the longest text I have read so far, and with almost no background/furigana/vocabulary notes. I was happy to see that I knew about 95% of the kanji, but was taken aback by how little I understood, I guess because of my poor grammar.
I was worried that I would get side-tracked looking up vocab and would not get through the four pages, so I tried sounding it out as I read and trying to follow as I would if I was overhearing a conversation. All in all it still took me about an hour to get through. Today, I plan to look up the vocab I didn't get, and re-read it before the next 4 pages.
Hi Kevin, great to hear you're enjoying the project! It sounds like your approach to this is solid. Reading aloud always helps with comprehension. Feeling the rhythm of the sentences is so important when you're internalizing the language. Hope to hear from you again on day 2 :)
Hi everyone,
I've read some of Murakami's work before but in English. I've always wanted to read his work in the original Japanese it was written in so this is an amazing opportunity, thank you Bunsuke!
It took me quite awhile to work through the text (~ 2 hours) but I'm actually surprised at how much vocabulary and grammar I recognized. I took note of 19 vocab words that had kanji that I couldn't quite recall the reading/meaning for to add to my Anki deck.
There were a few lines that I couldn't quite comprehend at the end of pg 381, starting with 普通の人間はが誰かを殴ったって and ending with 等しい行為ですからね. I had trouble understanding 打ちどころが悪ければ変なことになっちゃうんです and これはただじゃすみません in particular.
The story is really interesting and the topic of boxing made me think of a Hemingway short story that I read! Looking forward to reading more with you all!
Evelyn